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 Crosses...What do you get. Please help!

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Doug
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PostSubject: Re: Crosses...What do you get. Please help!   Mon Jul 12, 2010 10:35 am

Great info coming out here guys!

I am noting it all down and adding it to my data sets.

I am trying to split the albinos but its a bit hard with people being confused with the different types. great job Deano with the pics. Def helping people out.

Remember to tell me about fin length too Smile With fin length it seems that there is 3 types. Longfin, mediumfin and shortfin. The medium fin only seems to become apparent when they get a little bit older and as such my be hard for people to keep track of. but even if its just either long or short thats great too Smile

Keep the info coming guys!

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Amber
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PostSubject: L-144 notes   Fri Jul 16, 2010 2:23 pm

I sift though all sorts of forums, articles etc, and did read recently that somebody sequenced the mitochondrial DNA of the common BN, A. cf cirrhosus and the color morph L-144 and found them to be identical.

I am also hearing reports of a new color morph L-144 variant, dark eyed yellow with spots.
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PostSubject: Re: Crosses...What do you get. Please help!   Sat Jul 17, 2010 2:58 pm

id like to know how to get this variant

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Amber
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PostSubject: Re: Crosses...What do you get. Please help!   Sun Jul 18, 2010 1:53 am

A dark eyed white, yeah, I'd like to know how to get that too!!!

There is something that evidently works on the red/yellow pigment to lighten them, but leaves the dark black/brown pigments intact. I have seen photos of what looked like a calico with pinkish white, rather than red under color. This fish was a dark eyed pink as a juvi and a year later was pink and brown like a washed out calico.

Lunchbox mentioned a bit above that when he crossed two type 2 albinos he got type 2 fry and some lighter ones with no spots. I found that interesting as I have a pair of type 2 albinos, and one of their fry is not darkening up to golden yellow like the rest, it's more white, and because it's one of the larger robust fry, I don't think there is anything "iffy" with it. I plan to keep it and test breed later.

Also saw photos of fry from a pair of BN that consistently produced 3 types of fry: normal brown, standard albino, and distinctly white. The white fry in this case were also half sized runts. I don't recall if they died on their own eventually or if the breeder culled them out because of their small size. This is probably a totally different thing causing the white color, but something I keep in the back of my mind.
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PostSubject: Re: Crosses...What do you get. Please help!   Sun Jul 18, 2010 3:08 am

iv heard of albinos throwing really light fry. mostly light pink in color rather than the common yellow or cream color of the usual albinos. but these light ones from what iv read are really finicky and seem to die really easily. with my first successful spawning of my albino longfins the fry are all albino and the fins are starting to lengthen. but im hoping that over time i mite find somethin different in the batches like an oddball. not for breeding just for display, i have no intentions of tainting my longfin genes as so far they are throwing 100% alb lf fry and thats what i want Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: Crosses...What do you get. Please help!   Sun Jul 18, 2010 10:38 am

ive had the odd whites in some batches and never lost them.
what i have found if they are born yellow then start turning white you loose them.
heres a pick of a mixed bunch notice the whites.
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Doug
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PostSubject: Re: Crosses...What do you get. Please help!   Sun Jul 18, 2010 10:04 pm

Yeah, i too have found the odd white one in my batches, but they either turn yellow or die so i suspect its not a strong genotype. its like an albino albino Laughing

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PostSubject: Re: Crosses...What do you get. Please help!   Thu Aug 12, 2010 10:53 am

Hi Doug, I have been reading this with great interest, just wondered if you could tell me out of curiosity the ratio of albinos to commons you might expect from breeding 2 commons that both have the albino gene available to pass on to their fry? scratch

Cheers
James
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Doug
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PostSubject: Re: Crosses...What do you get. Please help!   Fri Aug 13, 2010 12:07 am

well, its hard to say.

If you take the simplest explanation that there is two types of colour (albino and common) and common is dominant over albino then you would expect 75% common and 25% albino if both parents had the albino gene. if only one parent had the albino gene then they would all be common.

The thing is that it doesnt seem to be this simple. thats why i am trying to get together all the info i can on the issue so i can start to pull it apart.

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laykoo
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PostSubject: Re: Crosses...What do you get. Please help!   Fri Aug 27, 2010 1:35 am

deano wrote:
ive had the odd whites in some batches and never lost them.
what i have found if they are born yellow then start turning white you loose them.
heres a pick of a mixed bunch notice the whites.


WoW! theres like 100 bristlenose there looks cool cant wait to mine breed Very Happy any reason why there in a bucket/bag
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Doug
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PostSubject: Re: Crosses...What do you get. Please help!   Fri Aug 27, 2010 3:53 am

off to the shop i reckon Smile

I just took down 120 to local shops, had like 15 bags in the car Laughing

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PostSubject: Re: Crosses...What do you get. Please help!   Fri Aug 27, 2010 4:29 am

lol!
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Lunchbox
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PostSubject: Re: Crosses...What do you get. Please help!   Sat Sep 04, 2010 7:13 pm

Hi everyone, here is an odd update on my Brown male sf and my Albino female sf cross.

The first batch was a 50/50 split

The second batch was more of a 60/40 split more browns than albinos but lost all but 12 or so albinos due to a water change when we had temps in the upper 90's changed the water 4 degree temp drop sent all fry into shock.

The third batch that is now leaving the cave is more of a 70/30 split with more browns than albinos.

Is there a reason for this? If I let them spawn a few more times will they be all brown breeding the albino gene right out of them? Every spawn more browns less albinos. I'm gonna let them breed one more time just to see what happens.
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Abbiej1711
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PostSubject: Re: Crosses...What do you get. Please help!   Sun Sep 05, 2010 3:26 pm

The whiter ones dying sort of explains why my albino died!
I got an albino from the pet store but when I got some more from somewhere else.. I noticed he was ALOT paler than the rest.... then he died =/

Thankfully, ive not lost any others! And I won't be going back there again.. they arnt my favourite pet store to be fair anyway, they don't know what most fish are :S
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Doug
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PostSubject: Re: Crosses...What do you get. Please help!   Mon Sep 20, 2010 1:04 am

keep those crossing counts coming guys, getting some good info here Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Crosses...What do you get. Please help!   Mon Sep 20, 2010 1:19 am

As requested Doug.. Wink

When I bread a calico male with different common females i thought, to start with, that I had all common's, however, about 2 weeks later the gold / orange started to develop in some of them. I know for sure that the females I had had albino genes but I didn't get any albinos in 3 batches! But then when he finally bread with the calico female I had about 50 calico's and only 5 albino's...

Gee this gene pool thing gets confusing!! Lol..!!
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Doug
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PostSubject: Re: Crosses...What do you get. Please help!   Wed Sep 22, 2010 5:28 am

Cheers mate!

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PostSubject: Re: Crosses...What do you get. Please help!   Mon Sep 27, 2010 12:33 am

Very interesting topic, but sorry to side track abit. I am just confused about the type 1,2,3 albino. Anyway, I bred 2 albino and all the 11 batches turned out albino fry, can I say, they are type 3 albino, cos I suspect the 2 albino adults are siblings, cos I bought them from the same source, though bought at different timing. I also noticed some of the fry do not hv the spot, its difficult to know the percentage.

And what will happen if these fry grow up and inbreed again. I read somewhere in this forum that says its not advisable to inbred cos of the weak gene. By weak gene, do I understand as, they will die more easily? or will they turn out deformed? Sorry if I ask stupid question, I am totally hopeless when genetics are concerned.
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PostSubject: Re: Crosses...What do you get. Please help!   Mon Sep 27, 2010 1:53 pm

Hi all,

If i cross breed or at least i try Ancistrus tamboensis with L144's Black eyed Lemon Ancistrus what will the fry be?
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Doug
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PostSubject: Re: Crosses...What do you get. Please help!   Tue Sep 28, 2010 12:23 am

breeding siblings is a massive NO NO!

Professional breeders never inbreed unless they are after a specific trait and even then is never sibling crosses, at most it is a 1/8 inbreeding (cousins). The reason that you shouldn't breed them is that genetic strength comes from genetic diversity and inbreeding reduces genetic diversity by 1/2 each time you do it. Most aquarium fish are already horribly inbred so as breeders we should activly try to reverse this trend. I personally have aquired breeders from Vic, NSW, WA and locally so i am fairly sure that i dont have any inbreeding.

The results of inbreeding may become apparent immedialty or take some time to manifest. usually you see extremely high mortality in the young fry however, sometimes it can take months for a defect to become apparent (usually when they begin to mature). Long and the short of it is...DON"T INBREED ANYTHING!!!! You wouldn't sleep with your sibling so why would you make your pet fish!

In terms of the albino types. This is still under debate. Some believe that there is more than one albino gene while others believe that there is an albino gene and a white/yellow gene. while others believe that there is only one albino gene. The simple fact is we dont know. thats why we are trying to figure out whats going on with this thread.

Migdem: I'm not sure. It depends on many things. Its assumed that the yellow colour is resesive to the dark colour so if the dark one is pure bred then the fry will be all dark but if he also carries the albino gene then you might get different fry. Its hard to tell if they will breed though, as they are techniclly different species. It depends how different they are, species wise, as a lot of the different birstlenose species do hybridize.

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PostSubject: Re: Crosses...What do you get. Please help!   Tue Sep 28, 2010 12:39 am

Thx so much Doug. I hv never inbred Discus so far, which many hobbyists/breeders hv been doing to get Albino Discus. I am planning to keep all my ABN fry that I bred todate, that's why I asked cos as they lived in the same tank, there will come a time, the siblings will breed. So, as they get bigger, when I see eggs, I throw away? or how do you all keep the siblings, in separate tanks?

Sorry for side-tracking. Sometimes I just wonder, most hobbyists or breeders sell away their fry, they go merry go round and the siblings may just meet one day and ended up in our tank thinking they are from different source and then start breeding.
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PostSubject: Re: Crosses...What do you get. Please help!   Sun Oct 03, 2010 2:43 am

Here ya go Doug

Counted my fry this morning,

54 commons(some may be Calico even), 50 albinos..I think this pair are keepers... Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Crosses...What do you get. Please help!   Fri Oct 22, 2010 7:56 pm

I had 2 common browns breed and have about 50 fry including one albino. I thought this strange because if the albino type is present I would have expected more than one. As far as I know I haven't lost one fish.

Today the same father bred with an albino female so after reading this thread I might expect 50/50?
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PostSubject: Re: Crosses...What do you get. Please help!   Fri Oct 22, 2010 11:43 pm

cheers guys

Loving the info!!

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PostSubject: Re: Crosses...What do you get. Please help!   Sat Oct 23, 2010 10:14 am

my alb lf pair r throwing out a mix of lf and sf alb. think maybe 75% r lf the rest r sf. think the pair r brother n sister tho, not sure didnt ask seller. wouldnt mind finding another female
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