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 Crosses - interbreeding Bristlenose UPDATED

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Doug
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PostSubject: Crosses - interbreeding Bristlenose UPDATED   Sat Feb 19, 2011 1:00 am

OK, this has been asked a few times in the past few weeks and I think its time we had a Sticky Very Happy

Crossing bristlenose

Some bristlenose can be crossed and other cannot. In short if the two different bristlenose you want to cross are different species then it’s a no go. For example, crossing a peppermint bristlenose with a orange spot will not work, or crossing a starlight with a L144 will not work. They are different species and as the biological species concept tells us, different species are not able to interbreed. I know there are rumours of people crossing long fins commons with peppermints to make long fin peppermints, in all my research i have never seen any evidence of this, and for me, seeing is believing and i sure don’t believe.

So what can you cross?

All the variations of the common bristlenose can be crossed. The variations include common, albino, long fin, short fin, marble (calico), super red and L144. There are other morphs of the common bristlenose as well however these are much rarer and more expensive. My advice is if you have these rarer types of the common bristlenose and you want to breed them, get a male and a female of the same variation as crossing may result in having none of the desired results in your fry.

So, if all the variations of the common bristlenose can be crossed then what are we expecting to find when we do cross them. This is the million dollar question. No one has ever actually done any proper genetic work into the colour morphs of the common bristlenose. While this would make telling the results of a cross a lot easier we now just have to make do with assumptions that are undoubtable wrong. What this means is that we assume that one gene is dominant over another but what we’re seeing is most likely a combination of several genes working together. Owing to this we find that our predictions are often off the mark, sometimes only slightly and sometimes by a huge margin. This is the nature of the beast and this is half the fun.

The first obstacle you will face in trying to uncover the possible outcome of a cross is knowing the genetics of you breeding pair. For example, if you are crossing calicos together and trying to predict the outcome of the cross the genetics of the parents will have a lot to do with it. If they are both pure bred calico then when you cross them you would expect 100% calicos. However, if one of the parents is the result of a cross then you don’t know the breeding pair’s genetics and the outcome is almost impossible to predict.

There is some hope though. Over the past few years the ratio of genes in the population of bristlenose has remained relatively constant. What this means is that there are actually very few breeder out there actually selectively breeding the different lines (when you consider the total number of breeders). Most just cross what is in their tank and hope for something cool. Because of this we can hazard a guess at the genetic of the breeders and try to estimate the outcome of the cross. The following information is based on the results of passed crosses and the current ratios of genes in the population.
Crossing commons with commons will result in common fry. There is however, sometimes the odd albino proportion of the spawn if the both parents were the product of an albino x common spawn.

Albino crossed with an albino will result in generally 100% albino fry. The reasoning behind this is that the albino gene is recessive and therefore if you have an albino fish it must have two copies of the albino gene meaning that the only colour morph genes the fry can get is albinos.

When you cross a common and albino the results are variable. In general you expect a 50/50 split across albino and common. This is because the albino gene is very common in the population and a high percentage of the common bristlenose will actually carry the albino gene. If you follow the Mendellial genetic cross of this you would expect 25% but it seems to be higher than this. Anywhere between 25-50% albino is common.

Crossing calicos is a bit trickier to predict as those crosses are not done as often and the genetic controls for these morphs are not understood. If you have pure bred breeders then it is a bit simpler. Calico crossed with calico will give 100% calico, Calico crossed with albino will give 100% calico and calico crossed with common will give a 50/50 split of common and calico. If you have cross bred parents then this will vary markedly.

The super red line came from the albino type 2 line as far as I can tell form my reading and asking a round. Basically they bred the ones with most pink/red on them until the entire fish was covered in red. That’s the basic version anyway. Super reds are one of the fish I would suggest getting a breeding pair rather than crossing. This goes for the green and blue lines as well. While these will interbreed I suggest that the crosses will product mostly common or albino fry as the red, green or blue colour is going to be very recessive and easily covered but covered by the more prevalent albino or common…or even calico gene.

The other crosses are the long fin/short fin crosses. There is a lot of debate surrounding these and it by no means settled. There are those who believe that the long fin gene is dominant by rare in the population, while others believe that it’s recessive. I haven’t made up my mind yet as I don’t have sufficient data to call either way. I’m leaning towards dominant but not willing to put the house, or even a fiver on it. Basically, the purebred rules apply here too. These rules will apply to pure bred. Short fin crossed short fin will give 100% short fin fry. Long fin crossed long fin will give 100% long fin fry. Short fin crossed with a long fin gives between 25-50% long fins. If the parents are the result of crosses then is becomes very hard to tell.

The other thing to remember is that these are all estimates. The result of any cross is based upon the chance mixing of genes from the parents. So even if there is only a 5% chance that you will get a albino from a particular cross, that is a 5% chance for each individual fry. So there is a chance, however remote, that all of the fry will be albino even though the chance of each individual being albino is so small.
For a bit of further reading on the topic this is a good place to start

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_inheritance

The section where it begins to talk about Gregor Mendel and his peas is of particular interest. All of the above arguments are based on mendellian genetics, named for Gregor Mendal.

At the end of the day there is nothing wrong with crossing any of the above mentioned variations of the common bristlenose. As always I am very interested to hear the results of any cross (fin type or colour). See here

http://www.bristlenoseworld.com/t1616-crosseswhat-do-you-get-please-help

Enjoy your crosses

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Last edited by Doug on Fri Apr 01, 2011 2:30 am; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Crosses - interbreeding Bristlenose UPDATED   Sat Feb 19, 2011 8:33 am

Great post Doug Very Happy That answers a lot of questions cheers cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Crosses - interbreeding Bristlenose UPDATED   Sun Feb 20, 2011 8:55 pm

Good Job

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PostSubject: Re: Crosses - interbreeding Bristlenose UPDATED   Fri Apr 01, 2011 2:32 am

I have updated the initial post here guys.

I have added a HEAP of information. If its a bit too technical let me know. I have tried to keep the jargon to a minimum.

Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Crosses - interbreeding Bristlenose UPDATED   Fri Apr 01, 2011 5:00 am

Great work doug... cheers

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PostSubject: Re: Crosses - interbreeding Bristlenose UPDATED   Fri Apr 01, 2011 12:25 pm

thanks Doug

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PostSubject: have a look at these hybrids   Thu Apr 14, 2011 9:49 pm

hi about 2 months ago i prchased a group of longfinned albinos, longfinned brown, and claros. [unfortunatlly due to unforscene problems they have all ended up in the same tank] Mad Mad Mad

i noticed about a month ago that all the abino longfinned females where very gravid and that the long finned albino male had took up residence in one of my slate caves and all the females where surrounding the outer cave enterance. The only problem being that the male would not let any of the females anywhere near him.

In the past week i had noticed that the male was not coming out for food and was being very violent towards and intruders to his cave. Last night i bit the bullet and set up the floating baby tank and shuck the cave over the top of it. Out came about 40 baby BNs. Laughing

There is only one problem look at the pictures and let them do the talking



i will ad the pictures when curby approves
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PostSubject: Re: Crosses - interbreeding Bristlenose UPDATED   Fri Apr 15, 2011 1:28 am

Had a look at the pics while i was approving them.

Its interestng but not unexplainable. If you dont know who the mother was then looking at the fry then i would assume it was a common. Going off our understanding at the moment it would have been an albino crossing with a homozygote common female (she has two copies of the common colour gene). this would mean that all the fry have one copy of the albino gene from dad and one copy of the common gene from mum rendering them all common.

The fact that you saw the albinos hovering around the entrance to the cave doesnt mean they are the ones who spawned. in fact when multiple females are present I find is the sneeky ones who end up being mum for some off reason. maybe they seem less desperate or something...who knows

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PostSubject: picc   Fri Apr 15, 2011 3:47 pm

here are the pictures

http://www.bristlenoseworld.com/gallery/Personal-album-of-simo-notts/dscf2391-pic_815.htm

http://www.bristlenoseworld.com/gallery/Personal-album-of-simo-notts/dscf2390-pic_814.htm

http://www.bristlenoseworld.com/gallery/Personal-album-of-simo-notts/dscf2389-pic_813.htm
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PostSubject: Re: Crosses - interbreeding Bristlenose UPDATED   Fri Apr 15, 2011 3:51 pm

the only thing that makes me think that it wasnt the longfinned brown females is that the babys dont seam to have long fins. unless this is something that becomes more evident when they get a bit bigger or if they ended up with the normal finned dna via hybridisation, only time will tell i will ad some more pics as they get bigger.

also i have breed common browns before [how hasnt Laughing ] and the babys didnt look anything like this they where speckly. the thing i find most bizzare is the strip running from the dorsal down to the plectrals. anyway thanks for the advice
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PostSubject: Re: Crosses - interbreeding Bristlenose UPDATED   Fri Apr 15, 2011 5:06 pm

Lovely looking babies either way!!
My babies all have the strip that you are talking about too... In fact, they have pretty much the same markings as mine lol!
Mine are from a common shortfin boy and common shortfin girl...
Great looking wigglers though... Congratulations!!
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PostSubject: Re: Crosses - interbreeding Bristlenose UPDATED   Fri Apr 15, 2011 6:39 pm

Many of my common brown fry also have the line from dorsal to pectoral that you refer to. Since you have long fin browns, long fin albino and claros in the same tank, were you wondering if the fry were possibly common BN X claro hybrids?

I don't know if those 2 species hybridize or not, but I have seen a photo of a fish that was SPECULATED to be a BN/Claro hybrid. The fish in question was at first thought to be just a flashy BN, but as he grew he stayed unusually small and colorful. His pattern was dots like a BN on the head which became larger and then reticulated like a claro on the body; his bristles were also very claro like. This fish bred freely with common brown BN females and all the fry were ordinary brown, none were ever as colorful as the father, all of which led his owner to speculate that this male was a bn/claro hybrid.

Now if your fry had been spotted in front and reticulated in the back........

This is just one of many anomalies I have come across. There is no way to know if this fish was in reality a BN/claro hybrid or just some sort of recessive mutant BN but I thought it was interesting nevertheless.
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PostSubject: Crosses   Sat Apr 16, 2011 1:55 am

Hi doug.
I have a breeding pair of albinos , the male is a long fin and the female is a short fin.The first hatch of 85 they had about 20 browns 50\50 split long and short fin.The albinos were about the same.
They just hatched out I am guessing about 200 this time and no browns.When I start to move them I will take a count of long and a count of short.

In the other setup I have a pair of short finned browns and they just hatched out about 80, I will do a count and see if we get any long fins, but as it looks for now they are all short and no albinos. The one interesting fact that I see is the albinos are very slow growing compared to the browns. Both batches were born within 2or3 days of each other and the browns are easly twice the size.
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PostSubject: Re: Crosses - interbreeding Bristlenose UPDATED   Fri Aug 26, 2011 10:35 pm

Hi,I am new to this site and found it by doing a search on crossing bristlenoses.At the moment I have a young pair of super reds and a young adult female calico and another small calico (too young to sex as yet,but i am really hoping for a male so that i have a pair)At the moment these four are all in the same tank.I am getting another tank in the next couple of weeks so that I can keep the two colours seperate.Yesterday I noticed the adult female calico was in with the male super red and they have spawned.He is now happily fanning a large clump of eggs in his cave that I drilled into a piece of wood (done before any fish were added to the tank)I really didn't want this to happen and thought i would have my second tank before any of these were ready to breed.I was a little dissapointed at first in myself for not getting a second tank quick enough but now am getting quite excited to see the outcome.This is the first time either of these fish have had babies but he seems to be doing an excellent job of guarding and fanning them.There are no other fish in the tank only my four bristlenoses so the babies should be quite safe.i hope they hatch and do well.I will keep you informed of the progress of these babies.
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PostSubject: Re: Crosses - interbreeding Bristlenose UPDATED   Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:32 am

Posting this just for info really .....

Male Albino BN crossed with Female Common Brown - I got 100% brown babies.

Male Albino currently fanning eggs from Lemon (l144) female - will post results when known.
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PostSubject: Re: Crosses - interbreeding Bristlenose UPDATED   Sat Dec 17, 2011 10:23 am

Male Albino BN crossed with Female L144 lemon bn - 100% brown babies :/
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PostSubject: good info    Fri Feb 17, 2012 7:27 pm

Easy to understand and answered most of my questions
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PostSubject: L147 cross   Sun Apr 08, 2012 1:22 pm

Hi I have a female l147 big spotted plec, and a male bristlenose
Of which I don't know the exact genetics, but they have bred last week and produced 7 fry, have u ever heard of this cross? If so has it got a name? Plz help
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PostSubject: Re: Crosses - interbreeding Bristlenose UPDATED   Sun Apr 08, 2012 11:15 pm

what else is in the tank?

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PostSubject: Re: Crosses - interbreeding Bristlenose UPDATED   Wed Jul 04, 2012 9:08 pm

my long fin calico male crossed with my short fin albino female, and they all (about 40) are brown with about 25 short fins, 15 long fins.



-when he bred with a lf calico girl, they were all calico lf's

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PostSubject: CROSS   Thu Jul 05, 2012 4:28 am

im fixin to cross a long fin albino female with a super red short fin male, has anyone made this cross before ? im wondering what the fry will look like
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PostSubject: Re: Crosses - interbreeding Bristlenose UPDATED   Sat Dec 08, 2012 12:11 pm

Thanks Doug, this upgrade has realy helped, as much as I like the coulors of crosses I still prefer purebreds. Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Crosses - interbreeding Bristlenose UPDATED   Wed May 29, 2013 11:12 am

Doug wrote:
Calico crossed with albino will give 100% calico

The super red line came from the albino type 2 line as far as I can tell form my reading and asking a round. Basically they bred the ones with most pink/red on them until the entire fish was covered in red. That’s the basic version anyway. Super reds are one of the fish I would suggest getting a breeding pair rather than crossing.

I have to disagree as I had a different out come Doug. I have crossed Calico to albino and got 100% normal offspring. I have also bred these offspring back to calico to get a 50% normal and 50 % calico. I bred these to pure calico and bred those calico offspring that are possible hetero for albino together and have produced calico and albino fry. I culled out of the colony any males that did not produce any albino fry. To me my fry look a little more orange than any of the albino fry I have had here for re sale from other breeders. I have also took the normal females F1 cross between Albino and Calico and bred them to both German and Chez Republic Super reds males and got 50% calico and 50% normal. From what I am told the super reds are line bred calico's. That they bred for reduction of the brown color. I have animals here that are pure Calico crossed Chez super reds . Those females were bred to German super reds males. I have noticed a slight reduction in the brown pattern in some animals. I would think if they were albinos they would have red eyes not dark eyes. Being I crossed calico with no albino gene to super red and then back to super red I should have got some type 2 albino fry but did not. That should rule out any albino gene in the making of the super red. I'm now on my way to crossing my LF calico males from the cross of the ( male Chez super red X normal LF female hetero for albino and calico ) to their LF & SF sisters. I'm also going to be crossing those males to my SF calico females that hold the albino gene. I'm expecting breeding any day now as I removed all the breeder male calico's that held the albino gene from that tank. I previously removed all the male calico's that did not produce any albino fry . The LF calico males from the cross of the ( male Chez super red X normal LF female hetero for albino and calico ) are just getting their bristles and they are in the tank with my breeder female calico's Possible het for albinos. I noticed this Morning one of My Males from this cross is sitting on 2 clutches and maybe a third.
For some reason I have 3 females that breed with in a few hours of eachother. They always breed with the most dominant male . I have removed males being I was trying to sort out what males held the albino gene no mater what male I used all the females bred with the most dominant male all in a 24 hour period. Either I did not see the third clutch or should get another clutch tonight. I know 2 of thoses females hold the albino gene the other female I dont think she is hetero but I could be wrong.

In another tank I have virgin German super red females and a male LF calico from the cross of the ( male Chez super red X normal LF female hetero for albino and calico ) . My goal is to make LF and SF albino super Reds
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PostSubject: Re: Crosses - interbreeding Bristlenose UPDATED   Wed May 29, 2013 11:59 am

Hi obviously Doug means a PURE Calico meaning it is not Het for anything.Then the outcome can only be Calico fry.Obviously when you are breeding fish that are carrying other recessive colours in their genetic makeup it changes the outcome.



Bristlenoses Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Crosses - interbreeding Bristlenose UPDATED   Wed May 29, 2013 4:10 pm

Bristlenoses wrote:
Hi obviously Doug means a PURE Calico meaning it is not Het for anything.Then the outcome can only be Calico fry.Obviously when you are breeding fish that are carrying other recessive colours in their genetic makeup it changes the outcome.



Bristlenoses Very Happy

No calico is a recessive trait . If you breed a pure calico to another mutation such as albino will only get normals as there is no compatibility in the genes

If you breed a calico to a albino and get 100% calico offspring that means the albino is a double homo animal being calico and albino. Both of these trates are recessive please re read what I wrote becaus all the breedings are there

You are are not grasping the fact that calico is not a dominant trait it is recessive. I have proved this . please re read my posts in this thread.
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PostSubject: Re: Crosses - interbreeding Bristlenose UPDATED   Today at 8:19 pm

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