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 Colony vs. Trio

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Morice
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PostSubject: Colony vs. Trio   Thu Sep 15, 2011 12:16 pm

Hello all,

I have had a plan of development on my mind recently regarding my fishes and wanted to see what everybodys opinions or preferences are regarding the topic of colony or trios for breeding.

I am currently breeding my bristlenose varieties in trio's but would like to step it up and make colonies but I'm not sure if the colony idea has more cons then pros...

I hope this topic hasn't already been done!

Would love to hear view points on it though.

Thanks
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jim.and
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PostSubject: Re: Colony vs. Trio   Thu Sep 15, 2011 2:51 pm

How many males are we talking about in this colony and what size of tank Question

It could be that the males will spend to much time disputing territory to actually get round to mating.
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kfenk
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PostSubject: Re: Colony vs. Trio   Thu Sep 15, 2011 4:43 pm

Your best bet is to stick with the trios. colonies can work and they also cant. sometimes males spend all there time fighting rather than breeding. other times all the females could take a particular liking to just one male so it has to do all the work. rival males can also pester caved males with eggs to the extent of eggs being eaten or booted. in the end i dont think its worth it. stick with trios, they work best Smile

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Morice
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PostSubject: Re: Colony vs. Trio   Thu Sep 15, 2011 10:09 pm

Thanks for your input,

What you have both said is exactly the reasons I started breeding in trios... It's easy care levels, you know what's in the tank without ripping all the caves out and counting and there is no male fights.

Just a side note: I have a trio of lfabn in my fry tank that breed like clock work and raise wrigglers completely fine and there is between 300+ fry in there.

This being said im currently growing out 20 odd fry to breed with but, the only way it's going to work is if they will live and breed in my 370L tank (135cm by 55cm by 50cm) because i Dont have room for another 6 odd tanks haha... I'm thinking that the ration will be 1m to 4 female in the hopes that the males will be too busy to fight.

The main points I'm worried about is the males fighting and reducing the amount of breeding and the bio load as I have never kept high density of adults before. What amount of filtration might be needed? I'm thinking 2x large canister filters.

Thanks again
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kfenk
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PostSubject: Re: Colony vs. Trio   Fri Sep 16, 2011 12:49 am

The filters depend on personal preference. I like to over-filter so my 4ft bn tank has 2 large sponge filters, 2000L/h canister and 2000L/h powerhead. Chose the big ones as I want a decent current to help promote breeding Smile

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Doug
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PostSubject: Re: Colony vs. Trio   Fri Sep 16, 2011 2:36 am

copy of my email for others too see

I must admit I have not heard of anyone doing such a colony. I’m not too sure how it would go, and that’s not a negative, don’t do it comment, it’s a genuine I have no idea. It will be a lot of bristlenose in a tank but as long as there are caves and hidy holes aplenty then it might be ok. As long as you get your name out there the fry will move quickly. If you are producing a fair number of them then you might even considering dropping the price you are after and sell to shops. Generally get about $10-15 each at a fish shop but you will sell 10 or more in a hit.

In terms of how many will fit and be happy im not sure. The tank is 4 x 2 x 2 yeah? Going off my standard rule of thumb that means you could happily house 8-9 males in there. I would be looking to really build it up though. Use the slate to make a ‘second story’ so to speak. I have seen this done a few times and it can work at treat as well as look amazing. The more stuff you have in there the more fish you can house. You will want lots and lots of filtration. I’m thinking at least 10 times per hour from at least two different spots. I would suggest going with the ehiem I have for sale or similar and one of these

http://www.guppysaquariumproducts.com.au/internal-external-filters/pro-aqua-canister-filters/odyssea-cfs-700-2600lph-9w/prod_2141.html

or like the one I have

http://www.guppysaquariumproducts.com.au/internal-external-filters/pro-aqua-canister-filters/2000l/h-with-uv-canister-filter-with-all-filter-media-new/prod_311.html

They both have inbuilt UV which will save you $$$ in the long run…I have never had to medicate a tank with a UV light running on it! They are both big flow fliters and are going to be good for current and filtration. The eheim will be the main biological filter and the other one will be for some additional filtration and current. I must admit I really like my one. They are quite power hungry but that the price for the high flows. The eheim for example will only do about 500-800l/h and uses about 8 watts, the pro aqua one will do 2000l/h and I have tested that and it will but uses 55 watts. You use a sponge pre-filter on the intake to stop the fry getting the fry sucked up and it take care of the physical filtration. That way you can have pure biological media in the canister.

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Morice
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PostSubject: Re: Colony vs. Trio   Thu Sep 22, 2011 11:14 pm

Thanks for your input people,

At least I have a good 6 months before my fry mature which should be enough time to sort out the finer details...

I hear what is being said about the males fighting making it easier to breed in trios just to avoid that problem but in reality I have a nice big tank to use and no space for another 6x small tanks haha. Dougs seen my fishroom/ kitchen I already have 11 tanks Smile

Anyway I think I'll run 2 canister filters and probably a internal filter for more flow as suggested and build an amazing slate/ driftwood mountain and keep the male to female ratio low (1m to 4-5f) to avoid conflict...

I think I will remove cave and spawn into the fry tank or look at internal fry savers that can hold the breeding logs as well.

Any input will still be loved. I'll keep you updated on the project.

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kfenk
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PostSubject: Re: Colony vs. Trio   Thu Sep 22, 2011 11:26 pm

I'd hate to see what 4-5 females to 1 male would end up like. My male has just had 2 females lay in his cave at the same time, can't imagine the poor guy fanning more than that :|

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Morice
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PostSubject: Re: Colony vs. Trio   Fri Sep 23, 2011 2:00 am

Yes, it's true 4-5 female to a male is really high but if they are monitored closely and can be removed to be fed up don't you think they would be ok?

As Doug recommend I could have about 8 males in the tank i have, so I might have to add a few males depending on how they go...

Lucky this is all still theory hey! I have been testing my largest male common bristlenose to see how he does with 4 females and so far it's worked nicely. They seem to have got in the pattern of 2 females breeding at once like yours so there is 100-150+ eggs in a spawn which hatch nicely and then grow fine giving the male enough time for feeding up again before the other 2 females spawn on him a fortnight later... But I am watching him closely encase it's just to much...
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Morice
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PostSubject: Re: Colony vs. Trio   Fri Sep 23, 2011 12:52 pm

Hey! I had a spare moment from study and was on YouTube and found this clip...

It's highly relevant to the colonies population idea... 1m to 4f haha...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5tnjo-r8H0
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jim.and
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PostSubject: Re: Colony vs. Trio   Fri Sep 23, 2011 2:38 pm

The video shows a nice 18 month old young male but will a breeding regime like that see him become an even better old male.

I know you are watching your male closely but the first sign of a problem could be when he keels over and dies. I'd much rather see a set up like that were 2 or 3 males are rotated and they can have a break and build up reserves.

The idea of 1m to severel females may well work but I'm just expressing my fears for the male. Very Happy


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kfenk
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PostSubject: Re: Colony vs. Trio   Fri Sep 23, 2011 9:41 pm

Come on that's just too much work for the poor lad. Personally I think you'd get better results with more males.

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Morice
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PostSubject: Re: Colony vs. Trio   Sat Sep 24, 2011 8:47 am

Yes it's true that the dads will have a lot of fry to look after,

I'm really enjoying this subject because it's interesting thinking back to their natural environment they live in, I mean it's highly improbable that a male only gets 2 designated females to spawn with (this is just an opinion though) and would more likely have a handful of females in the segment of the ecosystem the male inhabited and they would most likely fluctuate/migrate to different sections of the waterbody to spread their genes with other mates.

This being said, if a colony was created with such a principle and the colony was monitored closely for health reasons then wouldn't it be nicer for them then having a small tank with 3 fish within?

That's one side of the picture though. As you have stated, to avoid the majority of problems and to maximize breeding chances it would be best suited to breed in the trios. But I personally would really love to test a large scale colony.

In hindsite of what's been said regarding population ratio it would be in the best interest of the males to not overload them with females so I'll aim for 1m to 2-3f...

I hope I haven't upset anybody, I really do love my bristlenose and will not do them harm from over breeding/malnourishment. Smile
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kfenk
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PostSubject: Re: Colony vs. Trio   Sat Sep 24, 2011 12:16 pm

the thing is your thinking that in an Eco system there would be more females than males. In reality they would be quite widespread and the reason for a bristlenoses appearance and caving behavior. Males sit in the cave and flag the females with they're tails. Females see this and come to check the breeding site to see if it's good enough to breed. Here's where the bristles on the males head play theyre part. The bigger the bristles the better as from outside the cave the bristles look like a bunch of fry at the end of his cave. So in theory a male with big bristles will get the girls.
In an aquarium the selection is controlled so when the female is ready and she only finds the one male in a cave then there's no other choice. In a colony it makes sense that the more dominant male or males would be doing all the breeding. IMO rather than a colony it would be better to have separate breeding tanks with trios and a large growout tank. Once a male is close to releasing fry then move the cave to growout tank. Now after releasing fry the male can be placed into a resting tank or another tank with 2 females to start over again. With multiple trios you could swap and change males at will to diversify bloodlines. But that's just an idea of mine and I think similar to what doug used to or still does do...

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PostSubject: Re: Colony vs. Trio   Sat Sep 24, 2011 2:38 pm

As kfenk has pointed out in a colony you would probably get the dominant males getting all the females, as in nature.
In nature this highly active breeding spell is often short lived as conditions become harsher and all there energy is spent on just surviving. Although we can keep conditions in tanks at optimum conditions does not mean we can expect them to become breeding machines.
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migdem
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PostSubject: Re: Colony vs. Trio   Tue Sep 27, 2011 10:59 am

I am in for 1m to 2f but the only issue I have is about a filter. I can do a sponge filter or else a corner box filter but yet again I think in the box filter they could trap in it. Also an internal filter would suck them I think. What do you think about this? If I go for only sponge filter how can I generate more water current?
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Morice
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PostSubject: Re: Colony vs. Trio   Tue Sep 27, 2011 11:58 am

Sponge filters are pretty much 100% safe with fry, I don't really like corner filters but in my Bree it tanks I have a sponge filter and internal filter pumping 350lph (max flow rate) and all the fry that come out are perfectly fine with the current as far as I can tell. This is a nice inexpensive way to filter smaller tanks.

In my 4ft grow tank I have 2 large sponge filters and a fluval 305 canister filter with a large sponge block over the intake. I put fry in there that are 1cm plus and they seem to deal with the flow and grow up happily.

Hope this helps.
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migdem
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PostSubject: Re: Colony vs. Trio   Tue Sep 27, 2011 12:01 pm

how much litres does the tank with the 350 lph filter has?
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Morice
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PostSubject: Re: Colony vs. Trio   Tue Sep 27, 2011 12:58 pm

the tanks are standard 2ft size with roughly 60L volume. its not fancy but its functional :d
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Morice
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PostSubject: Re: Colony vs. Trio   Wed Sep 28, 2011 1:02 pm

Hey agai,

Now going back to the idea of trios...

If I can work out some tank movements down the track, then its probably possible to house the colony in individual tanks/trios and have my 400l tank As a fry tank.

Now saying this, it brings up a different question of is a tank with dimensions of 136x 55x 50h too big for fry to handle? This idea also sounds good to me as my fry tank is 200l and to double the tank size would be great... I'd be able to house like 1000 fry at a time with good filtration... Perhaps?

Thoughts?
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Doug
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PostSubject: Re: Colony vs. Trio   Fri Sep 30, 2011 6:09 am

seriously dude, buy my book! it covers all of this stuff!

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The number one source of Bristlenose information and the most detailed breeding guide avaliable
3rd edition LOADS OF INFORMATION, PICS, DIAGRAMS AND BRISTLENOSE GOODNESS

GO TO www.keepingandbreedingbristlenose.com FOR YOUR COPY!!

Like my book - why not "Like" it on Facebook!
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Morice
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PostSubject: Re: Colony vs. Trio   Fri Sep 30, 2011 11:31 am

I had better sell a few fry and purchase your book then hey! Im a bit annoyed
I haven't been able to so far... Cost wise, It's hardly anything in the big picture... I am looking forward to reading it.
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