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 Dwarfism in BN

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Bigpig
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PostSubject: Dwarfism in BN   Tue Nov 13, 2012 12:52 pm

About 3 years ago I bred my common BN pair, and amongst the resulting fry were a few albino.
As I sold the babies on, I kept back the smaller ones to feed up.
Eventually I was left with just one tiny albino baby.
Now after 3 years he has remained very small, about 2 to 2.5 inches.
He feeds well and seems fine and healthy.
I wonder if any other BN keepers have experienced this trait?

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Carolan
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PostSubject: Dwarfism in BN    Tue Nov 13, 2012 11:32 pm

Yes I have, I kept her because she was always smaller than her brother's and sister's, looks identical to her mother in pattern and spots but is only half her size now about 2 years of age. She does not grow or hasn't it seems for about a year now, she lives in 90G aquarium- I call her little miss, she is lowest in rank so has never bred- her mother and my other female both at least twice her size always win the battle for the male.
She is about 2 to 2 and half inches as well, not albino, just common black and brown- her mom is black and grey, her dad is red(not super red but she's brownish instead of grey) and greyu/white pattern. I love her she's so unique and little and super cute!!!!
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarfism in BN   Fri Nov 16, 2012 12:17 am

yeah, it happens every now and again you get one that is shorter than the others. quite cute really Smile

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ktk05
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarfism in BN   Sun Dec 02, 2012 12:26 pm

One of my 6 juvies is the same way! The other 5 have doubled this one's size despite the availability of food, wood, and hiding spots!
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Carolan
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarfism in BN    Sun Dec 02, 2012 6:26 pm

UPDATE: on little miss. I thought she was so low in the ranks that she would never breed. But She has laid her first clutch of eggs- about 20 or so that I can see, the male is a normal BN(very dark brown and normal size so double her size) and a first-time father also! Newest addition to my the tank, my son named him Leo- he is a young male so has a lot of bristles but not a full crown/moustache as my Alpha male- he is interesting in pattern as he has irregular spots and not as contrasting with the rest of his body- has no spots on his belly and orange an hue on body plus the tips on his tail are orange instead of white. Really interesting specimen of Ancistrus C.!

She laid 4 days ago so.... soon, I am really excited! My little miss is a MRS. now-hahaha!

But I am really interested in seeing if her dwarf trait is carried to her offspring! And also what the babies will look like with dad being so unique!


Last edited by Carolan on Sun Dec 02, 2012 6:31 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : spelling)
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marty14
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarfism in BN   Sun Dec 02, 2012 10:33 pm

Just wondering, would that be a trait that could be encouraged with breeding ???
A dwarf bristlenose could really catch on. Especially now that people are considering in having smaller tanks due to lower running costs.
Hmmmmm ??????????
Question Question Question
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ktk05
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarfism in BN   Mon Dec 03, 2012 1:55 pm

I really don't see why dwarfism shouldn't be selectively bred for as long as the fish is healthy. We do this with other animals: tea cup chihuahuas, Pygmy goats, Pygmy pigs, miniatures horses, ect....
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marty14
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarfism in BN   Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:37 pm

ktk05 wrote:
I really don't see why dwarfism shouldn't be selectively bred for as long as the fish is healthy. We do this with other animals: tea cup chihuahuas, Pygmy goats, Pygmy pigs, miniatures horses, ect....
I agree, I guess one just need to get enough stock to breed while keeping genetic diversity.
Marty
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Carolan
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarfism in BN   Mon Dec 03, 2012 5:43 pm

To be honest, this is something that I have been thinking of for a long time-selectively breeding for dwarfism! However because of the genetics involved and the already interbred specimens we all have-I chose to breed lil miss with this other specimen, instead of a brother, or cousin or direct relative.

It is something that my regular customers have asked for a long time and it is just now that it is happening for me- so knowing now the interest shown by all you folks, I will post when I have more results. hopefully this may help you all who are interested in this.

First tip/thing I have noticed- I have found that along with Dwarfism there is sometimes a higher fatality in the smaller ones, now if this is do to a genetic predesposition to interanal organ failure, not growing properly or other med. conditions as seen in human and mamalian dwarfism I am not sure- lil miss is unique in that she is a Dwarf but otherwise healthy in every posible way, and behaves exactly the same as a normal size BN- so all you breeders out ther will know what I mean. She is on the outside an almost exact duplicate of her mother just half her size. She seems otherwise, exactly the same, her eggs are the same size as her mother's eggs same shapp, same color, just a smaller number than her mother's batches, however this is her fist batch - so to be honest I do not know if this has something to do with number of eggs for her specifically. But I try and keep you all posted. Thanks for showing interest!

And hoping we can all help eachother out with this!!!
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marty14
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarfism in BN   Mon Dec 03, 2012 11:50 pm

Carolan wrote:
To be honest, this is something that I have been thinking of for a long time-selectively breeding for dwarfism! However because of the genetics involved and the already interbred specimens we all have-I chose to breed lil miss with this other specimen, instead of a brother, or cousin or direct relative.

It is something that my regular customers have asked for a long time and it is just now that it is happening for me- so knowing now the interest shown by all you folks, I will post when I have more results. hopefully this may help you all who are interested in this.

First tip/thing I have noticed- I have found that along with Dwarfism there is sometimes a higher fatality in the smaller ones, now if this is do to a genetic predesposition to interanal organ failure, not growing properly or other med. conditions as seen in human and mamalian dwarfism I am not sure- lil miss is unique in that she is a Dwarf but otherwise healthy in every posible way, and behaves exactly the same as a normal size BN- so all you breeders out ther will know what I mean. She is on the outside an almost exact duplicate of her mother just half her size. She seems otherwise, exactly the same, her eggs are the same size as her mother's eggs same shapp, same color, just a smaller number than her mother's batches, however this is her fist batch - so to be honest I do not know if this has something to do with number of eggs for her specifically. But I try and keep you all posted. Thanks for showing interest!

And hoping we can all help eachother out with this!!!
I think you would definitely be on a winner there. I can't wait to see your results.
Marty cheers
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Carolan
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarfism in BN   Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:19 am

Thank you for the support Marty!

UPDATE: all 20 or so eggs have hatched! I have little wriggles inside Leo's cave, just today(sometime in the night) was wanting to peek earlier because Leo was not on the top of cave but on the bottom- same behaviour when eggs hatch as with Alpha male and other BN dads- dads seem to do house keeping the first day- my observation anyway- I did still have eggs yesterday morning!

Just fed some wafers and dad came out of the cave to eat, first time dad and all I think!- left his babes for about a minute then resumed his daddy duties. Little miss, is fattening up!!!

I may be mistaken and maybe just a little too excited but am pretty sure that these little wrigglers are smaller in size than normal wrigglers. I had to use a magnifying glass to see if they had completely hatched or not. It looked in the cave, in the little corner like an orange smear- which I am not used to seeing, usually they are quite a bit more easy to see, and I used my glasses and all. But taking into consideration my experince I can almost with certainty say- they are tinier on their first day than my other batches, don't know if this will last, will keep you all updated.

This is extremely fascinating so far with encouraging and interesting results! Have not been able to take good pics and do not want to disturb first time dad too much-but have been preparing a separate tank for these special little ones- in case they were somehow different. So within a week if not sooner will move them and hope to be able to see them better and then take pics to ercord thi sinteresting event. Hoping not to disturb Leo too much and allow him to do his own natural thing would love for him to take good care of them for the remainder of their first orange to free-swimming phase! That is my greatest hope as this is his first batch and want to encourage his good daddy-care so far!!! For future cluthes hopefully!!!
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marty14
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarfism in BN   Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:26 am

Carolan wrote:
Thank you for the support Marty!

UPDATE: all 20 or so eggs have hatched! I have little wriggles inside Leo's cave, just today(sometime in the night) was wanting to peek earlier because Leo was not on the top of cave but on the bottom- same behaviour when eggs hatch as with Alpha male and other BN dads- dads seem to do house keeping the first day- my observation anyway- I did still have eggs yesterday morning!

Just fed some wafers and dad came out of the cave to eat, first time dad and all I think!- left his babes for about a minute then resumed his daddy duties. Little miss, is fattening up!!!

I may be mistaken and maybe just a little too excited but am pretty sure that these little wrigglers are smaller in size than normal wrigglers. I had to use a magnifying glass to see if they had completely hatched or not. It looked in the cave, in the little corner like an orange smear- which I am not used to seeing, usually they are quite a bit more easy to see, and I used my glasses and all. But taking into consideration my experince I can almost with certainty say- they are tinier on their first day than my other batches, don't know if this will last, will keep you all updated.

This is extremely fascinating so far with encouraging and interesting results! Have not been able to take good pics and do not want to disturb first time dad too much-but have been preparing a separate tank for these special little ones- in case they were somehow different. So within a week if not sooner will move them and hope to be able to see them better and then take pics to ercord thi sinteresting event. Hoping not to disturb Leo too much and allow him to do his own natural thing would love for him to take good care of them for the remainder of their first orange to free-swimming phase! That is my greatest hope as this is his first batch and want to encourage his good daddy-care so far!!! For future cluthes hopefully!!!
All the best.
Really looking forward to the results.
I bet the LFS's will be standing in line to get them if it works out.
I will keep my fingers crossed for you.
Marty
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Carolan
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarfism in BN   Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:35 am

Aweeee thank you soooo much!!! That is super sweet and sooo nice to say- I am just soooo very excited! cheers

I have had other dwarf-like Bn's before-but all but a handful have made it to maturiy with this type of health - as in breeding now. It must be a genetic trait that is from mom or dad,or both; but I think also happens by accident (mutations) as in the case of albinism and other genetic traits. I also think in my experience there must be different types of dwarfism as in other species and for different reasons. I had a few of what I thought were healthy dwarfs (but in actuality were smaller and weaker or something just was not right with them)-they were always thinner and their eyes were somewhat larger also their behaviour was not quite right. Although I fed them the same diet plus all conditions were the same but those all died before they reached full maturity.

I have a few more( true dwarf brothers and sisters- the healthy kind but they have yet to mature sexually). If they do and are true as lil' Miss is I will find them each respective mates, but I will not interbreed them. I find that practice although quicker in obtaining desired results, in the case of albinos and other interbred animals(as we know in dogs and cats for example), inherit disease seems to eventually show up. It may be neccesary at some point down the line, but for now these are the plans! Here's to hoping it works out well!!! Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarfism in BN   Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:02 am

Hi,very interesting topic and a great project to embark on Carolan.It sounds as if you have a good plan.Even though it may take a long time it does seem like it could be possible.At least you will have fun and gain knowledge by giving it a go.I would be interested to know the results and also your progress as you go along.I think it would be an excellent read if you made a log about it all from the start and as you progress.


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Carolan
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarfism in BN   Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:08 pm

Very Happy Gee thank you so much Bristlenoses!!! It is a super interesting project. I will do that; keep a log about it, write down as much knowledge that I gain as I can.

I can say that today I plan to do a 30% water change but do not plan on disturbing Leo- he has not come outside again as I have observed, but I did show my oldest son last eve the little smear of orange: he loves the BN's as much as I do or even more I think, he said mommy I can't see them, so we used the magnifying glass and he absolutely loved them- the babies are sooo cute he said, it is so funny because he is my little budding Biologist(scientist in that he will sit, observe and tell me his finding and what his opinions are)- my children really enjoy my hobby, the different stages and watching them grow and change.

Regardless of the results, this is the REAL reason I do this, as a stay at home mum and now that it is very cold here, the aquariums are an integral part of my children's day and learning. The whole experience from water changes to regular maintenence, to new eggs and from the fishes going to their new homes- it teaches them so much about life, beginnings and ends. They also show a great appreciation for nature and plants and animals of every kind-it is truley a blessing and honour to have such great luck and sucess with these little fish!

Thank so much for your appreciation and kind words-will keep mine also and share my results and findings with all of you kind folks!!! It is a pleasure to have a place where other BN peeps care and share and appreciate these wonderful fish and all they give us!!!

Kind Regards to all,
Carolan
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarfism in BN   Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:55 pm

I think it is great that you involve your children,as you say they will learn a lot from it and they could very well take an interest in the hobby themselves when older.

Bristlenoses Very Happy
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marty14
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarfism in BN   Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:36 pm

Carolan wrote:
Very Happy Gee thank you so much Bristlenoses!!! It is a super interesting project. I will do that; keep a log about it, write down as much knowledge that I gain as I can.

I can say that today I plan to do a 30% water change but do not plan on disturbing Leo- he has not come outside again as I have observed, but I did show my oldest son last eve the little smear of orange: he loves the BN's as much as I do or even more I think, he said mommy I can't see them, so we used the magnifying glass and he absolutely loved them- the babies are sooo cute he said, it is so funny because he is my little budding Biologist(scientist in that he will sit, observe and tell me his finding and what his opinions are)- my children really enjoy my hobby, the different stages and watching them grow and change.

Regardless of the results, this is the REAL reason I do this, as a stay at home mum and now that it is very cold here, the aquariums are an integral part of my children's day and learning. The whole experience from water changes to regular maintenence, to new eggs and from the fishes going to their new homes- it teaches them so much about life, beginnings and ends. They also show a great appreciation for nature and plants and animals of every kind-it is truley a blessing and honour to have such great luck and sucess with these little fish!

Thank so much for your appreciation and kind words-will keep mine also and share my results and findings with all of you kind folks!!! It is a pleasure to have a place where other BN peeps care and share and appreciate these wonderful fish and all they give us!!!

Kind Regards to all,
Carolan
That is really terrific how you are sharing your hobby with the kids. I remember when I was young I also kept fish but my parents where not that enthusiastic. Even thought I did manage to get my father interested later.
Please keep us up to date regarding your project. And I really hope it will work out. But regardless I am certain you will have fun doing it. Plus I know there are a lot of smart heads here that are more then willing to help. All the best.
Marty Very Happy
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Carolan
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarfism in BN   Wed Dec 05, 2012 8:10 pm

Thank you again for your supportive words, Marty!

Yes it is true my hobby is all about teaching my children and learning along with them!! It is a joy to have such fanatsic luck with these little fish- breeding for us always, like clockwork!

I peeked today and instead of an orange smear have visible, little beige wrigglers- as many of you know, good conditions and a good diet helps them develop rapidly and become healthy specimens of their species for years!!!

I am very excited- it was only a peek- so could not take a pic, but Yes indeed, the ones I did see are smaller-shorter tails by far than regular day two specimens and have a distinct plumpness to them-like mum, so still small amount of egg sack- very small for day two only small yellow bellies, no orange at all, so overnight-wow!!! But otherwise quite developed as in color for day two and usage of yolk sac!- Very interesting as my other batches of commons, longfins and albinos are usually at this stage on day three or four.

Was unable to do water change yersterday- lack of time, but will do today as in right now!!!

Gota go, but am thinking I might have to move them sooner to their smaller separate tank because development is unexpectedly excelerated!!!

Maybe someone might know why this development has been so quick- I am at a loss as to why-really, any suggestions,tips, even concerns or negative or positive feedback is always appreciated!!!! Truely- it is the best way to learn anything thanks in adavace

Look forward to hearing anyone's opinions on their rapid development! Or any thing that might shed some light on this NEW endevour!!!
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarfism in BN   Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:53 am

I believe so as we'll because I had a hole bunch of fry from about a month ago and a new lot the other day and most of the ones from a month ago have tripled in size and a couple of them are only 1mm bigger than the new fry
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PostSubject: u    Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:51 pm

wow
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PostSubject: Dwarf Bn   Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:24 am

I have a 3 year old albino ancistrus and he/she is about 4 cm long i think its the same thing as you guys have Very Happy
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PostSubject: good things come in small packages   Mon Apr 01, 2013 1:38 pm

i think the dwarf bns would be a great seller to be honest.. i think i have a new project..
Any pictures yet
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