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 afraid that this is bloat

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chicablanquita
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PostSubject: afraid that this is bloat   Tue Jan 01, 2013 3:32 am

Hi
I found this page looking for info about my 4 year old bristlenose pleco. I have two that live in my 55 gallon tank with two black moor goldfish (one new). I got them all at the same time. I have to admit that I didn't know much about goldfish and I didn't know much about bristlenose pleco when I bought them. I am still learning now.
I came here because I have noticed that my pleco do not seem to be eating their algae wafers lately. Also, I noticed some red streaks (vein like) in my albino's body/fins. Last of all, my albino looks very swollen. Obviously after looking around I'm afraid that it is bloat. I am filling out the questionnaire below but wanted to mention a few more things - although I feed them algae wafers and peas, I am sure that they also eat some of the goldfish food which will be higher protein which now I am learning is a big problem.
If it is bloat it sounds like there is not much that I can do - my water quality is great (well as far as for goldfish - I might be operating under the wrong assumption that what is good for goldfish is good for pleco, which is what I was told when I bought them. I need to obviously learn more and see if they need a separate environment)

Any help/advice will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks you

b]Tank size and setup: 55 gallon tank (standard rectangle)

Substrate: small natural river rock (little bigger than pea sized, 1/4 inch)

[b]filtration (Internal, external, flow rate, last cleaned and what it was cleaned in): two internal pond pumps w/sponge. One is 720 gph, one is 525 gph. Sponges cleaned weekly (rinsed in water from tank) Also had a very small external power filter (200+ gph) that I kept a sponge and crushed coral in. Just added this several weeks ago as I had a big power filter that died. Bought another internal pump and had this small filter that I added just for the coral really, which helps keep my ph stable. This little filter died today.......

[b]Airstone/sponge filter etc: sponges in pond pumps, crushed coral in small filter (that has just died)

[b]Inhabitance:
two black moor goldfish, two bristlenose

Fish affected by issue (all/bottom dwellers, all bristlenose or a single fish etc): one bristlenose

Feeding system (what, how much, how often): daily peas and algae wafers (2 wafers per day, several peas). Sad to say they have been also eating what I feed my goldfish which, aside from peas, includes flakes, gel food (made of gelatin, flakes, brine shrimp, wheat germ, garlic, chlorophyll)

current water change system (before illness appeared): 3 times per week, 10%, gravel vacuum half tank twice per week

water changes made since illness appeared: today

As many levels as you know (pH, Ammonia, nitrate, nitirite, KH, GH, TDS, aanything you can find out, your local fish shop should be able to help with this):
Ph = 7.6
Ammonia = 0
nitrite = 0
nitrate = 0

any chemicals used (including carbon/chemical fitration inside the filter): none

water source and treatment: tap water with Prime

Major changes in the last 3 weeks (new fish, new plants, new anything or changes): new black moor about 2 weeks ago. Did a salt/garlic tonic on tank (10 day treatment) to prevent bacterial infections. My 4 year old black moor has float/swim bladder issues from past nitrate problems from when I first got my tank and didn't know what I was doing. So I do keep my water changes up and check my parameters often. I do occasional salt treatments. Because of the new black moor, I did a preventative salt/garlic treatment.

[b]Symptoms (gasping, not moving, bloated, spots, wounds, stressed colours etc):
My albino bristlenose seems bloated. Not eating as much (finding uneaten algae wafers). I also noticed lately that both bristlenoses have been going directly under flow of the little filter towards top of tank (not sure if this is a sign of a problem, I seem to recall that they seem to like water flow). Also I have noticed in the albino bristlenose some red streaks.


Note - I took a video and have it on youtube and have two pics but can't post them here for 7 days. Any way to get them to you?
Thanks

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PostSubject: Re: afraid that this is bloat   Tue Jan 01, 2013 7:20 am

Hi and welcome to Bristlenose World.I am sorry to hear about your bristlenose being ill.Can you please tell me the temperature of the water and if you have any wood in the tank?


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P.S Can you post the link to youtube here?
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PostSubject: hi   Tue Jan 01, 2013 8:11 am

Thanks for responding.
I do not have any wood in the tank (and from reading here it seems like I need to really make some changes - hope not too late).
Temp is 72.
I don't think he's eating anything, including the peas.
I don't have a separate tank to put him in. I do have a partition in my tank right now since my big goldfish is having float issues, so he is just with my other bristlenose. He used to spend a lot of time in the cave but as of lately he is just sticking to the side of tank, moves around a little, but I noticed that he looked very swollen today, etc.

I can't post links yet but it is youtu.be/LkI4aWDoDxc
I have two pics and they are flickr dot com/photos/12130515@N04/8332416922/in/set-72157632400021282/

EDIT - took another video - a little better, tried to give all views of the poor guy: youtu.be/T4LNS_cVeJc

Thank you
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PostSubject: Re: afraid that this is bloat   Tue Jan 01, 2013 9:21 am

Hi,I can't find pics or vids unfortunately but I will give you what advice I can.As you already suspect it isn't a good idea to keep bristlenoses with cold water fish because they need a higher temperature and a few different things.They need bog wood in their tank to graze on and the temp should be approx 80f.They have probably been eating the food you feed to the other fish which isn't good either and is more than likely what has caused the problem.Your cleaning routine sounds good and water perameters so i can't see that being the problem.They also need plenty of water movement and good oxygenation.Their diet should be a very good varied vegetarian diet.Foods such as cucumber/zuccini,courgette,tetra pro veg crisps,green beans,deshelled peas and algae wafers.It is important not to overfeed and to vary the diet as much as possible.

You could try getting some Esha 2000 and treating with this.This will not harm your bacteria and make sure if you have any carbon in filters to remove it first.It is difficult to save a fish in the advanced stages of bloat but it is always worth trying.Some people use metronidazole if you can get hold of it but it will kill off your bacteria but is said to be excellent for bloat.Bloat really needs to be caught as early as possible.

I really hope the little guy recovers.He needs treating asap to stand a chance.

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PostSubject: youtube info   Tue Jan 01, 2013 9:56 pm

Hi
Today no change - he (assuming that he is a he) is pretty much staying in one place, outside of his normal spot in cave. He is staying at bottom of tank. He is not eating, at least not that I can tell. He is still swollen (belly). He doesn't even hide when he sees me or when I clean tank - normally he would scurry away to the cave.
I tried to get him to eat peas with garlic today - didn't attempt to eat.
I don't have access to any stores today due to it being new years - reading about bloat it seems like if this is indeed it that there is not much hope. I regret that I didn't learn more about them before setting up a tank with both goldfish and bristlenose. I do not have another tank at this time - just one big ol' 55 gallon for the 4 total fish.
I wish that there was something that I could do to help him - it seems like first a need a more definite diagnosis before I do any further treatment.

My youtube account is under chicablanquita88
There are two videos of him from last night - they are my only two public videos so if you can go to my page you should see them easily I hope!
Thanks so much
Wendy
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PostSubject: so what do I do?   Wed Jan 02, 2013 6:05 am

So he is getting more swollen. He's moving around a little more. Still not eating any peas/garlic as far as I can tell.
I don't want him to be in pain. What is to be expected now? Is there something that I can do for him as far as suffering?
I'm so sad and I feel so terrible because I probably could have prevented this if I would have known the signs sooner.
He's been with us for 4 years and we love him.
Our other bristlenose seems fine now but I think that I am going to have to try to get another tank set up for as he can't stay in the goldfish tank with the temps being lower I think. This is not something that I can do immediately and I have to spend some time learning about how to get a new tank cycled. I have sponge in a few pumps in this existing tank and have read some info here but again - this is not something that I can do immediately unfortunately.
Thanks
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PostSubject: Re: afraid that this is bloat   Wed Jan 02, 2013 11:29 am

Hi,didn't you get my personal message?I looked at your pics and vid and he does have bloat.I recommended you getting some maracyn and maracyn 2 if you can get it in your country.If you can only afford to get one then get the maracyn 2.If not try getting some Esha 2000 and treating with that.If you can't get that then get a broad spectrum antibacterial.If you need any more help please don't hesistate to ask.

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PostSubject: Thanks   Wed Jan 02, 2013 4:57 pm

As many times as I checked yesterday I didn't see your pm - going to store today.
Thank you so much.
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PostSubject: Re: afraid that this is bloat   Thu Jan 03, 2013 2:00 pm

Hi,any news?How's he doing?I hope he is o.k.


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PostSubject: Hi   Thu Jan 03, 2013 3:28 pm

I've just discovered this morning that he died overnight.

I did get the medication in yesterday.

I guess it was just to late for my poor guy.

I appreciate your help.

Wendy
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PostSubject: He is alive..   Thu Jan 03, 2013 3:44 pm

Well - he is alive still after all..

This morning I had went to see him and he wasn't moving. I lifted him - not moving. I lifted him out of water to take a look - no movement, not a gasp. I put him a net and put him back in his hospital tank.
I came back a few moments later and he was not in the net and was swimming around the bottom.

I do not see any changes - he is still bloated.

I don't see in poop or anything.

I haven't put food in the hospital tank since he's not eating.

Is there anything else that I should do right now or just leave him for now?

THANKS
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PostSubject: Re: afraid that this is bloat   Thu Jan 03, 2013 6:56 pm

Have you started treatment? What did you get ?

Has the hospital tank got a heater and filter?

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PostSubject: meds   Thu Jan 03, 2013 9:08 pm

maracyn 1 and maracyn 2. I started yesterday evening. I also picked up some metronidazole/praziquantel to have on hand.
I have a small pond pump in the hospital tank (250 gph, good water movement, oxygen). No filter. I put a stocking full of substrate from main tank in there - used water from main tank to fill hospital tank as well. (10 gallons approx). I also put his cave in there but he's not going in it.
He is staying next to the substrate stocking mainly.
I do not have a heater - I don't need one for my other fish - actually have problems keeping temps low for them. Unfortunately I have just now learned that my bristlenose need warmer temps than my moors.

THe water in hospital tank is about 74.


Note that my hospital tank is something that I put together in this emergency - it is a new plastic 18 gallon bin.


Should I perform small water changes (treating w/Prime) to get the water warm?



Last edited by chicablanquita on Thu Jan 03, 2013 9:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: afraid that this is bloat   Thu Jan 03, 2013 9:19 pm

Hi,I am keeping my fingers crossed for him.I hope he pulls through and makes a full recovery.Keep up with the meds according to directions and please keep us informed of his progress.

If you can get some zuccini and put some in weighted down with a spoon or plant weights just incase.Remove it after a day and replace it each day so that there is something in there for him if he gets his appetite back.

Also give him darkness and plenty of things to hide under and around.A small piece of bog wood would be a great thing for him.


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PostSubject: thanks   Thu Jan 03, 2013 9:23 pm

Thanks for responding.
I will get him some zucchini.

As far as bog wood - I need to find some. I want to get some for my main tank as well.
Is that just drift wood? Is there any particular kind that I should look for? I forgot to look to see if the pet store had some.

THANKS
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PostSubject: Re: afraid that this is bloat   Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:53 pm

Hi,I use two types of wood,bogwood which is dark and sinks easily and mopani that also sinks easily but is dark on one side and lighter on the other.They will need soaking in boiled or very hot water for probably a few days.Change the water when it has cooled and put more hot water in and repeat till the water is looking clear.Using boiling water will help kill any germs etc on the wood and will help get a lot of the brown colour (tannins) out of the wood which is going to leach into your tank water.This will not harm the fish but will look way too dark if it isn't soaked well.Try to get pieces with no sharp edges or parts also and I recommend that you get it from an aquatic store not from outdoors.You may be able to buy it off the internet if you can't find any in the stores.


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PostSubject: Booboo died today   Fri Jan 04, 2013 10:22 pm

Hi
Thanks for all of your help.
Our little booboo (that was his name) died this morning.
It was very terrible to see a living thing go through something like bloat. I feel very sorry for him that he went through that.
I have learned a lesson the hard way at his expense but have already spread the word about proper care for bristlenose, thanks to this site. Hopefully I can help other bristlenose and will point owners this way.

I still have bebe left in the tank with my two black moor goldfish and he seems ok at this point. I am looking for bogwood.
I am making sure to feed him properly. I have him partitioned right now in half the tank as it is large enough - he will not be getting much, if any, of the protein based foods that my goldfish eat. However, because the temps in the tank are in the low 70's I feel like I am going to need to move him to a new tank - I cannot invest at that at the moment. He has been in this tank for 4 years - is temp something that bristlenose can adjust to over time or is it a priority to get him to a heated environment?


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PostSubject: Re: afraid that this is bloat   Fri Jan 04, 2013 10:58 pm

Hi,I am so very sorry that he didn't make it.At least you tried to help him and you have learned by it that is the main thing.A minimum temp of around 72 will be o.k and as long as it doesn't drop below this it should be fine.They have been known to survive in temps even lower and even breed in lower temps but I personaly wouldn't keep them in any colder than 72,I keep mine at 78/79.

Has your remaining bristlenose got plenty of things to hide in or under ? As that way he will not get stressed out too much.


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PostSubject: Thanks   Sat Jan 05, 2013 5:02 am

Hi
Yes my bristlenose that is left (Bebe) has a cave that he likes to hide in. I am also going to get him some bogwood. Thank you for all of the information - it will definitely help me with Bebe.
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PostSubject: Re: afraid that this is bloat   Sat Jan 05, 2013 3:45 pm

Hi,you are very welcome and I hope all goes well with Bebe.



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PostSubject: Re: afraid that this is bloat   Sat Jan 05, 2013 10:26 pm

Just an FYI, goldfish are highly herbivorous fish just like BNs. Try feeding your goldfish more fresh or frozen veggies and both species should respond well. Also you can try mixing in vegetable flakes with lower protein to your existing food and that can help prevent this in the future.

I know this guy who feeds his goldfish mostly F/T peas, green beans, oranges(weekly), and lettuce. He feeds flakes or pellets 3 times a week.

Sorry you lost your booboo :,(
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PostSubject: Thanks - another bloat question   Sun Jan 06, 2013 3:23 am

Hi
Thank you so much for your advice and concerns, everyone.

I am now super paranoid about bebe and am starting to think that he looks a little bloated now.
I don't know if it's just me or if he really is.
He seems to be acting pretty normal. He appears to be eating.

He's still super fast - I can't get a good pic. Here are a couple but you know kind of blurry - you might not be able to tell. I will try to get better pics.
I've scoured pics of other bristlenose and some of them look like him - they are not concave underneath right?

I guess that I still can't post links - if you could put in the www and then flickr.com/photos/12130515@N04/8352387496/in/set-72157632444695403/


I'm just worried. I am feeding him peas and algae wafers - getting him some bogwood and cucumber/zucchini. Gave him a green bean tonight - he hasn't touched it yet.

FYI - I do feed my goldies peas and I make them gel food that has veg. However - what I think was the problem is that I also give them protein, such as flakes, brine shrimp, and even the gel food is made of gelatin which has protein. My bristlenose would go crazy when I fed the goldies - they seem to love the protein. Bebe is partitioned right now so not getting much, if any, of what I feed the goldies.
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PostSubject: Re: afraid that this is bloat   Sun Jan 06, 2013 5:13 am

Hi,how did you prepare the green bean? Try to hold off on too many wafers if hes looking a bit bloated and don't feed too much food.

Can't find the pics i tried allsorts but says cant be found.

No they aren't concave.

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PostSubject: Re: afraid that this is bloat   Tue Jan 08, 2013 7:11 am

Hi, I have never (knock wood) experienced bloat in my BN, so this may be off base, but is there a correlation with not only too high protein but also the low temp making digestion even more incomplete/difficult?

I realize BN can survive lower temps, but would they normally feed as much, even on the correct foods, if they weren't right in front of them as they are in an aquarium environment? I'm speaking from reptile experience, ie. a cold reptile generally won't eat, and the worst thing for a reptile that has recently eaten is too cool temps.

I'm wondering if Bebe would benefit from a small heater, the 7.5 or 15 watt type sold for Betta bowls, placed somewhere on the bottom of the tank (they can be buried in substrate) where he normally hangs out. It certainly wouldn't raise the temp of the whole tank much, if at all, but it would create a warmer spot the fish could choose to use or not. Reptiles know enough to seek out warmth (basking), perhaps fish do as well?


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PostSubject: Hi   Tue Jan 08, 2013 3:27 pm

Thank you for the info - I will definitely look into it!

I am still waiting for my bogwood to arrive - also ordered some spirulina flakes that I can't find around here and a clip to hold veggies. Should be here shortly.

The green beans were cooked and then I weighted one down (as it will get pullled to pond pump). I've read on different posts the different ways that people prepare the peas/beans/etc. Some people use canned, some frozen. Some blanch them. I always deshell the peas - I've used no added salt canned peas that I shell. The beans were no salt added canned green beans.

The cucumber / zucchini it looks like can be microwaved slightly if you want it to sink but it appears that you can use fresh, uncooked as well right?

I know that I have a lot more to read and learn here.

Bebe does not look bloated - I followed your advice and didn't give him wafers for a couple of days, just peas. Honestly, I don't know if he ever looked bloated. I think that I am just letting my mind play tricks on me after seeing how terrible the bloat was for booboo.

Anyways - Thanks again. I appreciate it.

wendy
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