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 Albino Calico Bristle Nose Pleco

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PostSubject: Albino Calico Bristle Nose Pleco   Tue May 28, 2013 1:23 am

Ok I finily got some fry up to 1 to 1.5 inches in size. As far as I know I'm the only one with these. It took some years of work but I finily got some albino calico fry. I know these are calico because all of the breeders are calico.




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PostSubject: Re: Albino Calico Bristle Nose Pleco   Tue May 28, 2013 10:34 am

looks like a normal albino to me. Its possible to get albinos from two marble or two common parents as the albino gene is recessive.

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PostSubject: Re: Albino Calico Bristle Nose Pleco   Tue May 28, 2013 2:05 pm

Yes an albino is an albino and only an albino.There is no such thing as an albino calico I am afraid.An albino has 2 albino genes and is totaly recessive.As Doug says you can get albinos from any colour fish as long as the coloured fish are carrying the albino gene.So 2 calico fish that are both carrying the albino gene can produce albino babies.
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PostSubject: Re: Albino Calico Bristle Nose Pleco   Tue May 28, 2013 4:13 pm

Nope I breed snakes and rodents for the last 28 years there are double and triple mutantions. We bred sometimes 3 color mutation together to create new color morphs. We also do the same for pattern mutations. we also combine pattern and color morph together. The adults were double hetero for calico and albino. I kept the calico fry from that batch and bred them to each other. Now calico is a mutation because if you breed calico to normals you get normals hetero for calico . Being both parents are calico they are the homo recessive.. Bred together they produced albino offspring . If I was to take that albino and breed it back to a calico then I would get 100% calico offspring caring the albino gene AKA Hetero. If you look at guppies there is a solid gold body morph that is a gene mutation there are albino gold body guppies.

Here this my help you better understand gentics

http://www.serpenco.com/cultivars/snow.html
http://www.serpenco.com/cultivars/butter.html
http://www.serpenco.com/cultivars/butmotley.html
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PostSubject: Re: Albino Calico Bristle Nose Pleco   Tue May 28, 2013 6:50 pm

Everything you said is correct and yes i totaly get it.I know a lot about colour genetics and i can assure you that those albinos you have there are pure albino bristlenoses and nothing more.What you did was breed two calico bristlenoses together,both of which were carrying the albino gene (het for albino or however you want to say it), the albinos got an albino gene from each parent which made them albino.Albinism is totaly recessive to all other colours and an albino cannot be carrying any other colour.

Yes if you put these back to a PURE calico you will get 100% calico that will be carrying the albino gene ( het for albino ).It is as simple as that.



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PostSubject: Re: Albino Calico Bristle Nose Pleco   Tue May 28, 2013 7:29 pm

there a gene nmutations out in the animal world for color . albino was berd to them to produce albino of that color morph


In cornsnakes
Take the caramel gene mutation it makes a orange snake yellow you cross that to albino you get normals when ypu breed those offspring together you get normals, albinos, caramels and albino caramels butters . the buters are bright yellow with red eyes. They look nothing like a normal albino not do they have the blackeyes of a caramel Most albinos are Amelanistic being they will carry all the other colors but the melanistic pigment.


normal cornsnake


Amelanistic ( AKA Albino corn snaske )


Anerythristic corn


snow corn this snake is expressing 2 different genes for color Anerythristic and Albino

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PostSubject: Re: Albino Calico Bristle Nose Pleco   Tue May 28, 2013 7:41 pm

here you can see how albino has affected the caramel gene. The same thing is going on with my calico albinos they are double homozygous



Caramel corn


Albino corn


Butter corn this animal is expressing both caramel and albino genes it is a double homozygous
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PostSubject: Re: Albino Calico Bristle Nose Pleco   Tue May 28, 2013 9:16 pm

Alright, I have to agree with Doug and Bristlenoses on this one. If both parents of your albino fry are calicos then the parents are Ca ( 'C' being a dominant allele indicating the calico trait and 'a' being a recessive allele indicating albinism.) Breeding the two will yeild both calicos, CC and Ca, and albinos, aa. These albinos are just that albinos. If you were to breed them back to a calico then there is no way to determine what fry off spring you might get unless you know the genetics of the parents. If it was a homozygous calico, CC, then all fry would be calico, Ca. If were a heterozygous calico, Ca, then you'd get both calico, Ca and albino, aa fry.
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PostSubject: Re: Albino Calico Bristle Nose Pleco   Tue May 28, 2013 9:51 pm

You must have not read my earlier posts in this thread I know all the gentics I did the original cross . I bred a albino LF to a calico . Then bred the F1 offspring females to calico male . The calicos from that cross were possible hetero for albino. I bred those calicos together there fore all the prential stock was calicos. I got albino and calicos . Being both parents are calico any albino offspring are albino calico. I allready wrote this down in a earlier post. This is not hard to figure out. The problem is you not doing the Punnett square with the right letters. Praents are Ca to Ca being they are calicos hetero for albino. The offspring would be CC, Ca and CA. breakdown I/4 will be calico albino the other 3/4 of the offspring will be calico . Out of that calico offspring, only 2/3 will be hetero for albino, The other 1/3 will not be hold any gene for albino.

I been doing this for 28 years and made many color and pattern gene mutations . I was the first one to produce these triple homozygous mutations in corn snakes. The Hypo, lavender Bloodred and the Hypo Caramel Mottley. Some of my animals are in England and Germany . I have sold some of my corn snakes for 1000 American dollars


Now I showed you 2 fine examples of where albino mutation effects a color mutation in snakes. I can show you how the striped mutation looks like in albino with or with out another color mutation in the mix if you like.
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PostSubject: Re: Albino Calico Bristle Nose Pleco   Tue May 28, 2013 11:10 pm

Hi,albinism is totaly recessive it cannot be A it can only be a.You cannot breed 2 albinos together and get another colour.I have read everything you have put and i do totaly understand it.I studied the albinism gene for a very long time in different animals.For a recessive trait to show itself it has to be the only factor in the genes.
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PostSubject: Re: Albino Calico Bristle Nose Pleco   Tue May 28, 2013 11:53 pm

Bristlenoses wrote:
Hi,albinism is totaly recessive it cannot be A it can only be a.You cannot breed 2 albinos together and get another colour.I have read everything you have put and i do totaly understand it.I studied the albinism gene for a very long time in different animals.For a recessive trait to show itself it has to be the only factor in the genes.

sorry I was wrong with the letters being we are working with 2 ressive genes the lettes would be cc, ca and ccaa

Did you look at the 2 examples of corn snakes I posted. Explain why the albino caramel ( Butter corn ) is bright yellow with red eyes because in your book this is not supposed to happen. When you breed 2 butters to each other you only get Butter corns, no caramels with black eyes and no regular albinos. It is not hard to understand once you start working with double Homo and triple homo animals. They don't teach you this in regular school. If you took a course in advanced genetics then you would have learned this. I did not go to school for this I learned it through breeding animals and had a genetic professor ( Dr. H. B. Bechtcl ) teach the reptile hobby what is going on.The reptile hobby knows how these genes work the fish hobbyist don't because there are not a lot of different mutations expressed in fish, but they are out there. Many Hyopmelistic fish are labeled albino


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PostSubject: Re: Albino Calico Bristle Nose Pleco   Wed May 29, 2013 12:01 am

this might help you out


http://www.cornsnakes.nl/

once there click on genetic wizard


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PostSubject: Re: Albino Calico Bristle Nose Pleco   Wed May 29, 2013 12:08 am

I still don't get what your trying to achieve. They look exactly the same as other albino bristlenose. There's no difference in patterns or anything... I'm sure you could also breed albino lemon blue eyes, super reds and green dragons. But what is the point? They would just look like the albinos we have now. There was another thread a wile back with the different coloured albino available too.

Now with your corn snakes yes you can see the difference in the albino mutations which is pretty cool. Personally I like the black and white Anerythristic corn

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PostSubject: Re: Albino Calico Bristle Nose Pleco   Wed May 29, 2013 12:16 am

What you are pointing out is all true if you base the genetics on the genetics of a snake running with the same number of alleles and operating on the same number of genes.

You need to be careful about asserting an absolute like this about the genetics of the bristlenose. People have been researching these fish for a while and are no where near making that sort of claim. I myself have a PhD in population genetics of aquatic organisms and have been breeding them for over 12 years, playing with crosses and documenting the results then analyzing the outcomes of the various crosses, back crosses etc. Granted I do not claim to know everything about the bristlenose but I know enough to know that we are looking at multiple genes operating on multiple chromosomes as the different morphs appear not to be linked.

I guess what i am saying is the I, as i am sure most people on here, am open to new ideas, just please do not come in here telling us how it is and tell us we are wrong.

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PostSubject: Re: Albino Calico Bristle Nose Pleco   Wed May 29, 2013 12:23 am

kfenk wrote:
I still don't get what your trying to achieve. They look exactly the same as other albino bristlenose. There's no difference in patterns or anything... I'm sure you could also breed albino lemon blue eyes, super reds and green dragons. But what is the point? They would just look like the albinos we have now. There was another thread a wile back with the different coloured albino available too.

Now with your corn snakes yes you can see the difference in the albino mutations which is pretty cool. Personally I like the black and white Anerythristic corn

I totally agree with you they might not be any different than adult normal albino. When they grow older they might look tolally different. When line bred I should be abile to express the gene a lot better this is only the fist generation of babies. Calico thenselves are very variable some are all brown where others have some deep orange color
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PostSubject: Re: Albino Calico Bristle Nose Pleco   Wed May 29, 2013 12:32 am

Doug wrote:
What you are pointing out is all true if you base the genetics on the genetics of a snake running with the same number of alleles and operating on the same number of genes.

You need to be careful about asserting an absolute like this about the genetics of the bristlenose. People have been researching these fish for a while and are no where near making that sort of claim. I myself have a PhD in population genetics of aquatic organisms and have been breeding them for over 12 years, playing with crosses and documenting the results then analyzing the outcomes of the various crosses, back crosses etc. Granted I do not claim to know everything about the bristlenose but I know enough to know that we are looking at multiple genes operating on multiple chromosomes as the different morphs appear not to be linked.

I guess what i am saying is the I, as i am sure most people on here, am open to new ideas, just please do not come in here telling us how it is and tell us we are wrong.

At least you know what I'm talking about I'm sure with your backgroung you know a true all white albino is quite rare. Most albinos in the hobby are Amelistic. T positive or T negitive . I been waiting for you to chime back in . Do you know how hard and fustrating it is to try to explain this stuff witha HS education. I b3een doing a lot of mutation projects in mice and snakes for years making new patterns an colors. You don't know the crap I been having to deal with in this hobby explaing that not every fish with red eyes is albino some are hypomelinstic.
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PostSubject: Re: Albino Calico Bristle Nose Pleco   Wed May 29, 2013 12:36 am

Doug have you worked with this cross at all If you have I like to know your findings. I sure dont want to be wasting my time if rthey are not going to be anything different than a normal albino. I'm plaining to breed my albinos to the super red german stock. Then breed back and forth to get a albino super red. I'm also working on LF super reds
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PostSubject: Re: Albino Calico Bristle Nose Pleco   Wed May 29, 2013 12:16 pm

Hi,please don't assume that my learnings are from HS.I have been studying and breeding animals for 35 years.I especialy studied the albino gene.The thing is we are talking about bristlenoses and not snakes here.When you start breeding double and triple recessive genes together obviously this changes things.May I ask what your original breeding Calico is genetically? Is the Calico a PURE CC Calico? It sounds like you are trying to say that a recessive colour can carry a dominant colour which obviously isn't possible.


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PostSubject: Re: Albino Calico Bristle Nose Pleco   Wed May 29, 2013 3:44 pm

Bristlenoses wrote:
Hi,please don't assume that my learnings are from HS.I have been studying and breeding animals for 35 years.I especialy studied the albino gene.The thing is we are talking about bristlenoses and not snakes here.When you start breeding double and triple recessive genes together obviously this changes things.May I ask what your original breeding Calico is genetically? Is the Calico a PURE CC Calico? It sounds like you are trying to say that a recessive colour can carry a dominant colour which obviously isn't possible.


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Where do you get this from I was talking about my own education not yours I only have a HS education.

Now Calico is a recessive gene so is albino If you cross a calico to a normal you will get normal offspring same as albino. it is totally possible to have a animal with 2 or more recessive mutations The fact is when you breed 2 different recessive genes together you mostly get normals that carry both genes ( double hetero) unless they are some what compatible. There fore you get double hetero off spring. If you been following what I been writing you should know the calico is a recessive gene and albino is a recessive gene. The fact is when you breed the F1 offspring of 2 double hetero adults a small percentage with come out expressing out both gene mutation and is known as a double homo. I did not want to do this I knew that I might not be able to tell the difference between the albino calico's and the reg. albinos. I bred my double hetero offspring back to a calico to produce 50% calico and 50% normals. I kept the calico's because 50% of the calico's will carry the albino gene and 50% wont. I did this so all the parental stock are calico's so any albino offspring would be calico albino. I already explained this.

Now I have not only worked with reptile mutations but rodent mutantions as well as fish . I have proved some albino african cichlids that been labiled Albino were not albino but Hypomelinistic. The genes work the same as all the other animals I bred in the past.
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PostSubject: Re: Albino Calico Bristle Nose Pleco   Wed May 29, 2013 4:26 pm

I appologise i misinterpereted what you said.I totaly understand what you are saying and i do get it like i keep saying.May I ask what you intend to achieve and what end goal are you trying to reach?



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PostSubject: Re: Albino Calico Bristle Nose Pleco   Wed May 29, 2013 5:44 pm

No problem I don the same thing all the time cheers

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I know how this must look to all of you, here comes some guy you never heard of claiming this and that. I talk from the heart I don't mind being wrong. I love working with gene mutations for color and pattern. I have 3 tanks of BNP and and would have more but I live in one bedroom apartment in the Bronx. I breed a lot of African Cichlids along with the corn snakes. I don't breed mice any more because they stink so I breed African Soft Furred Rats and yest I breed mutations in them too. I been in the fish hobby for 45 years now since I was 5 years old and will be 50 in one month as of today. I don't mind sharing my findings thats why I joined this forum, To share my breeding experiences with others that enjoy working with BNP morphs

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PostSubject: Re: Albino Calico Bristle Nose Pleco   Wed May 29, 2013 11:02 pm

LF super reds are purdy. There was a guy a while back on here who had them.

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PostSubject: Re: Albino Calico Bristle Nose Pleco   Wed May 29, 2013 11:47 pm

I love to get some LF super reds out of Germany . I'm courteous I was talking to a person from Australia on FB about common BNP. They were saying that there were not a lot of color morphs of common BNP in Australia. is this true What Morphs are availible there
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PostSubject: Re: Albino Calico Bristle Nose Pleco   Thu May 30, 2013 1:58 am

Common sf/lf, albino sf/lf, calico sf/lf and yellow black eye (L144) sf/lf. Apparently the super reds might even be here but not available to us common folk lol

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PostSubject: Re: Albino Calico Bristle Nose Pleco   Thu May 30, 2013 4:24 am

kfenk wrote:
Common sf/lf, albino sf/lf, calico sf/lf and yellow black eye (L144) sf/lf. Apparently the super reds might even be here but not available to us common folk lol

That stinks you would think you guys would get some of the better morphs from Europe I'm dying to see the blue morph that Doug mentioned
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