Crosses...What do you get. Please help!

As the title says...

I am trying to wrap my head around how the genetics of bristlenose colour and fin length works. I am slowly getting an idea but i am missing a few bits of data that i need to complete my picture.

so i am appealing to all the breeders who have crossbred - either by accident or on purpose, to let me know what the outcome has been of these crossses

Calico (marble) x Common

Calico x albino

and this is for the people outside Aus

Super red x common

blue x common

super red x Calico

Super red x blue

I seem to have a good idea of how the genetics of the fins work as i have my own data for that, or at least i am working on it do you know how much of a pain it is collecting all the babies from a spawn to look at their fins!

Thanks heaps for any help. I dont need to know exact numbers, just a rough guess as to how many of each morph resulted from each cross.

Doug

Hi Doug, I'm a relative newbie so can't help but I am very interested to read any replies you get - also, does it matter if they cross breed?

They are all the same species so there is no harm in corssing them. There are those out there that argue that they should be kept as pure lines however, i think that is dangerous for the species, as breeding for specific recessive triats can cause other issues unforseen. I cross mine on a regular basis, both because i am trying ti identify the genetic working of the fin and colour genes as well as I think it keeps the fish healthier and stronger to keep the genetic pool mixed

what do you mean as a blue

I have seen a few of these floating around. I am not sure if they are capable of corssing with common bristlenose but i thought i would ask as we dont have then here in Aus and im trying to cover all my bases

http://www.bristlenoseworld.com/bristlenose-talk-f5/help-blue-ancistrusjari-ancistrus-t1489.htm

or

http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/species.php?species_id=1680

Looking at the data now i would suggest they dont cross but im not sure so if anyone could lay this one to rest that would be great too

I had a spawn of a short fin golden albino male with a short fin L-144 female. the results were 100% brown. The spotting was larger on some as juveniles, giving them a brighter appearance, but still within the range of regular brown BN and the older they got the more standard looking brown they became.
I specified the type of albino because there is more than one type and the different types could possibly give different outcomes in crosses. The female L-144 was not the real species one, but the color morph of the common BN.

I am also trying to figure out how BN genetics work.

I don't have any super red yet, but I have most of the commonly available color morphs. So far normal brown, golden albino, calico, L-144 (the color morph not species) and I just picked up some brown long fin and what I hope will be the other type of albino; they have spots where my golden albinos do not.

I would suggest when you make color crosses to be as specific as possible as to type of albino etc. Note even the type of markings (spots, no spots more blotchy etc.) as this could make a difference in the outcome. Pattern does alter how a color will appear in other animals so it could in BN too.

Granted mood, diet, overall heath etc affect both color and pattern, but still some fish have distinct markings or a lack thereof.

What have you figured out so far?

I'm pretty confident that there are at least two types of albino on different loci, and that the golden albino and L-144 are on different loci. Also fairly confident that the golden albino is a simple recessive. It acts that way for me and seems to for others. Not sure about the other albino.

I suspect (this is only a guess) that long fin is dominant rather than recessive, but that like albino there is more than one type. The long fin that most of us associate with the term has long flowing fins, and other has longer fins than a short fin, but not as long as regular long fin. I haven't a clue how this one is inherited and I think it's been crossed with the other long fins in a lot of cases which could skews results, so I think fin length when doing crosses involving long fin has to be specified.

Genetics is not random, when you know how the traits are inherited and how they interact with one another it's fairly easy to produce what you want when you want it. I for one would like to be able to do that.

Amber, you seem to know your stuff

I think that you are correct about the albino morph being covered on 2 or more loci. this is the only way to explain the L144 as true albinos have red eyes. I guess i should have made that clear.

I havent really been able to figure out too much so far as i'm only just starting to get into it. From what i have observed in my breeding i am guessing that longfin is recesive but i dont have enough data to conclude that. I am still waiting on a few crosses of my own to mature enought so i can check their fins. my first spawn of longfin x shortfin gave almost perfect results but the second threw that out the window so i need to check a few more before i call it. I also suspect that there is something else going on here as i do come across some with long-ish fins but i wouldnt call them a longfin.

I actually suspect that the colouring of bristlenose is covered at several different loci, as a result of interbreeding between closely related species. so to figure it out is going to take a massive effort and in reality will prob only be worked out by doing some sequencing...and i hate sequencing DNA! Its so much more complicated that genotyping! but i figured that by checking out what other people have got from their crosses we might be able to build a picture.

Very interesting topic!

If it helps, I have crossed my a calico male and a common female with the result being 100% common brown but with a more 'caramel / cream' hue to the fry. Though the same male calico breeding with one of my calico females gave me 100% calico fry. I seperated the male and femal calico and the continued to throw 100% calico fry. This had gone on for about 5 spawns. I sold the pair and bought a group of young long-fin calico's that had their first spawn 4 days ago!! So we'll see if the batch turns out 100% calico long-fin or wether there is others in the mix...

Will report my findings in a few weeks

Pete

excellent, thats exactly the kind of info I'm after.

Cheers buddy!

like amber says theirs two types of albino if not three.
first cultivated form is the more yellow mottle type.
form 2 is more orange with small spots on the head area only.
but i believe the third one must be from a crossing of the two and get an inbetween coloure of yellow and orange ie lighter orange with small spots all over the body. ive done this cross.will get some pics up i also believe that the L144 coloure came from the form two type of albino jmo
will get some pics up.
as for crossing long fins ive bred a short fin male albino to a long fin albino female and got a complete mix of long short and some inbetween.????

If a common bn breeds with an albino do you get a 50/50 split on the fry? or is it dependent on what the male is?

thats exactly what we are trying to find out here mate. If the breeding system is simple then it may be that easy, but i doubt it as i suspect the is al least two different forms of albino./..the albino gene and the yellow gene and i suspect they actually act seperatly of each other. for example making it possible to havee an albino L144 if you get what i mean (same colour, but red eyes).

In general, from what i have seen so far, common x albino will result in mostly common fry. I would love for it to be a 1:3 ration albino: common as that would make life so easy but its often not

Stannyblade wrote:

If a common bn breeds with an albino do you get a 50/50 split on the fry? or is it dependent on what the male is?

i think you will find you will get more brown than albino fry mate.
ive had brown fry from two albino's in the past and put this down to a female i bought.
i got rid of the female and this as never happend again. im now very selective of were my stock comes from as i dont want the browns.

Doug wrote:

thats exactly what we are trying to find out here mate. If the breeding system is simple then it may be that easy, but i doubt it as i suspect the is al least two different forms of albino./..the albino gene and the yellow gene and i suspect they actually act seperatly of each other. for example making it possible to havee an albino L144 if you get what i mean (same colour, but red eyes).

In general, from what i have seen so far, common x albino will result in mostly common fry. I would love for it to be a 1:3 ration albino: common as that would make life so easy but its often not

i think what we need to remember is that albino's are cultivated form's from way way back.
and we will never probaly know what went into the gene's to get the two true forms of albino.
but correct me if im wrong as ive never come across this info.
im sure theirs all sorts of colour's of what people call albino out their now.
i know a guy not too far from me thats been breeding albino's for a long time.
and his look a very pale white'ish pink if that makes sence. but im sure their this shade from bieng inbred for a long time.
as he as not added anything to them for years untill last year when he had some from me to add some colour to them.

here's a female i bred doug

she's from a form 2 pair and is what i would call a L144 colour if not better with red eyes and no spots what so ever.
this female stood out from all her other siblings and a real deep orange.
and ive never bred another like her from this pair??.. dont know why this is as ive reard well over a 1000 fry from this pair.
i would have loved a male of this colour. but so far no joy with this.
this female does not throw her colour either. so im hoping to get some from her young at some point but nothing yet.
if i do i will be trying to breed for this colour.


this male is from a form 1 cross form 2= possably form 3 people keep going on about.

notice the orange colour and the spots all over the body and fins. the spoting coming through from form 1.

here's a young male form 2.
showing the head spots and slight spoting of fins but no spotting of the body


head shot of a young female form 1
pale yellow and mottled body

not the best pics

I'm not sure we have to know what went into the make up of the early cultivated forms of BN, we just need to figure out what's there now and how it works. My guess is that you are right about the 3rd type of albino, the lighter orange with spots, that it probably represents a cross of the other two types; though not a first generation cross. I think color (orange vs light yellow) and pattern (spots or lack of) are inherited separately. I also think type 1 and type 2 albinos, while both being true albino are albino due to different flaws/disruptions of pigment production and are thus inherited separately. The biggest problem I see is being able to correctly identify the type of albino we are looking at.

Based on correspondence I've had with others I think albino type 3 will probably produce albino with type 2 and all or some brown with type 1. I have type 2 albinos and just purchased some juvi BN of type 3. I plan to cross the two types later on and I will report here what results.

Besides color and pattern genes there are also modifying factors, groups of little infinitesimal traits that come together quantitatively to affect the exact shade of a color, or placement of dots etc. It is sounds like it may be these modifying factors that are responsible for the deep color of your female albino. You mentioned she does not reproduce her color, but you did not say how she was bred;was she inbred to son, father or sibling, or to an unrelated albino of her type, it can make a difference.

I have 3 adult albino type 2. 2 males and 1 female. Both males do have spots on the head only, though not as many as your male in the photo. The males developed the spots only at full maturity, and the female does not have spots at all; nor is she particularly deep colored like that female of yours. Do your type 2 females have spots on their heads or only your males?

so my albino male has been with my common female. Lets say from the hatch is albino female. If eventually she breeds with another albino will there still be common offspring as well as albino?

There could be. Albinos to albinos have been know to produce 100% brown fry, 100% albino fry or a mix of the two colors. This does not mean that BN do not follow the "rules" of genetics, it means that we really haven't a clue as to how the genes of the BN interact or even what they are. Searching for those answers is what this thread is all about.

never was any good at science

Stannyblade wrote:

so my albino male has been with my common female. Lets say from the hatch is albino female. If eventually she breeds with another albino will there still be common offspring as well as albino?

in short mate yes.
i bred too albinos and got some brown fry.
im not into genetics and dont even pretend to understand them. all i can go on is what i have bred.
i got rid of the female and its never happend since. i recon this female must have been bred from brown cross albino and carries the brown colour gene.
thats all i can put it down to.
this is why im not a fan of breeding the brown and albino together. i dont want the browns in my breeding stock.

Amber wrote:

I'm not sure we have to know what went into the make up of the early cultivated forms of BN, we just need to figure out what's there now and how it works. My guess is that you are right about the 3rd type of albino, the lighter orange with spots, that it probably represents a cross of the other two types; though not a first generation cross. I think color (orange vs light yellow) and pattern (spots or lack of) are inherited separately. I also think type 1 and type 2 albinos, while both being true albino are albino due to different flaws/disruptions of pigment production and are thus inherited separately. The biggest problem I see is being able to correctly identify the type of albino we are looking at.

Based on correspondence I've had with others I think albino type 3 will probably produce albino with type 2 and all or some brown with type 1. I have type 2 albinos and just purchased some juvi BN of type 3. I plan to cross the two types later on and I will report here what results.

Besides color and pattern genes there are also modifying factors, groups of little infinitesimal traits that come together quantitatively to affect the exact shade of a color, or placement of dots etc. It is sounds like it may be these modifying factors that are responsible for the deep color of your female albino. You mentioned she does not reproduce her color, but you did not say how she was bred;was she inbred to son, father or sibling, or to an unrelated albino of her type, it can make a difference.

I have 3 adult albino type 2. 2 males and 1 female. Both males do have spots on the head only, though not as many as your male in the photo. The males developed the spots only at full maturity, and the female does not have spots at all; nor is she particularly deep colored like that female of yours. Do your type 2 females have spots on their heads or only your males?

i agree amber but it would be nice to know for sure.
all i can say is i bred the two types together and in my mind thats a first cross of my stock. but like you say thats if they are true to type.
this is what i bought them as. and they are very much differant to each other in colour and and the mottle of type one.
what i dont understand if you breed two true types of albino together say 1 to 1 then 2 to 2 then cross 2 and 1 together you should still get all albinos
but with different colouring and spotting. from the two types.??
unless what you are calling a type 3 is differant to what i think they are. what i see as a type 3 is the male in my pic orange with spots all over.
only thing i can think of is the type 3 you have over their is from brown crossed albino and this is ware the brown gene is coming from when you cross them back.

as anyone got any pics of albino's they have bred from albino cross browns if so post them up guys so we can see the differance.

my orange female was bred from form 2 not inbred or from siblings. i bought two pairs from different sourcess and split the pairs.
she seems to be a one off.

my type 2 females do have very faint spots on the head but they are only really seen when photograft.


Based on correspondence I've had with others I think albino type 3 will probably produce albino with type 2 and all or some brown with type 1. I have type 2 albinos and just purchased some juvi BN of type 3. I plan to cross the two types later on and I will report here what results.

i will be waiting with intrest to see the results of this breeding.

Albinos, be they fish or rabbits or what have you, have all the color and pattern genes non albino individuals do with one exception. They have inherited some genetic flaw, which prevents dark pigments from being made and that in turn prevents them from visually showing what they are. An albino could be a brown, calico, L-144 or any other color a BN can be, you just can't see it because it can not make the dark pigment needed to show those colors and patterns.

The production of pigment is a multi step process. A disruption at say the first step in the process, and a different disruption at say the last step would both cause pigment not to be made and result in an albino. The flaw at step one and the flaw at the last step may be controlled by separate genes unrelated to each other. I think this is the case with the two main types of albino BN. Flaws at different genetic sites that prevent dark pigment from being formed. What you see is similar, a yellow to orange fish with red eyes. It makes sense to me, that if the flaw is at a different spot in the pigment production chain, then the albino itself, while a true red eyed form, might be just slightly different from the other type, and this is what we see. IF this hypothesis is true, you could have fish that was a double albino, which should produce albino no matter what type of albino it was bred to. You could have an albino of one type that was a carrier of the other type that could produce both albino types and browns, or an albino that was albino at one point only that when bred to the opposite type will produce only brown. This seems to fit what people report, but it's all speculation and guess work until the results of very specific test breedings are seen.

I'm looking forward to the albino type 2 albino type 3 cross also. It will be a while as the type 3 are maybe an inch and a half right now.

I recently bred Brown male with Albino Female & Albino Male with Brown Female all fry were brown.I have recently had two broods from the Albinos which I paired together & all were albino.I did this experiment because a couple of years ago I was told that you had to cross Brown & Albino to get Albino again along with some Browns.I have been breeding Albinos for a couple of years now but always Male & Female Albino.I experimented to prove the guys theory wrong,Brown appears to be the dominant gene when crossing.

Well here's my contribution, I have breed my Albinos they are a Type 2 male sf and a Type 2 female sf and have gotten Type 2 fry and a lighter fry with no spots. I also breed a Common brown male x and my Type 2 female and have gotten a 50/50 split of browns and albinos but the albinos are lighter with no spots at all. When the fry first left the cave from the Albino x Brown cross I thought I had 3 different fry but the lighter browns that I thought were Calico fry darkened right up like the other browns in the lot. But my Albino LF female dosent fit Type 1,2,or 3 she is a very white with a pinkinsh tint to her with spots on her head but only half as much as the Type 2's. Anyone shed some light on that one?

Lunchbox wrote:

Well here's my contribution, I have breed my Albinos they are a Type 2 male sf and a Type 2 female sf and have gotten Type 2 fry and a lighter fry with no spots. I also breed a Common brown male x and my Type 2 female and have gotten a 50/50 split of browns and albinos but the albinos are lighter with no spots at all. When the fry first left the cave from the Albino x Brown cross I thought I had 3 different fry but the lighter browns that I thought were Calico fry darkened right up like the other browns in the lot. But my Albino LF female dosent fit Type 1,2,or 3 she is a very white with a pinkinsh tint to her with spots on her head but only half as much as the Type 2's. Anyone shed some light on that one?

Yep!

The many mysteries and wonders of creation

Would'nt mind seeing a pic of the pinkish one....