NEED HELP HERE! ICH in my tank. Can I treat.

Ok here is the deal. I have a male and some females in the 20gal long breeder setup, and while waiting for them to do thier thing my male and females in my 90gal community tank spawned last night with about 100 eggs. About a week and a half ago my wife bought a couple black skirt tetras while I was at work and put them in my 90. No big deal except I asked her not to do that. Anyway lastnight as I was watching my bn plecos doing thier dance, I noticed my blue rams had Ich on them and also a few of the tetras did as well.
So I need to know fast, if I can treat the tank, with the newly dropped eggs in the tank for the ich? Should I move the male and eggs to the 20gal? What should I use to treat the ich that won't hurt my eggs? What would you do?
I used to quarn any new fish that I bought, but had no interest on any more fish so I took that tank down to setup the breeder tank so I don't really have a hospital tank at the moment. And figures that the one time she adds new fish to the tank when I at work the tank gets ich!
Please help fast! don't want to hurt the eggs!!

aidenh48 wrote:

Ok hear is the deal. I have a male and some females in the 20gal long breeder setup, and while waiting for them to do thier thing my male and females in my 90gal community tank spawned last night with about 100 eggs. About a week and a half ago my wife bought a couple black skirt tetras while I was at work and put them in my 90. No big deal except I asked her not to do that. Anyway lastnight as I was watching my bn plecos doing thier dance, I noticed my blue rams had Ich on them and also a few of the tetras did as well.
So I need to know fast, if I can treat the tank, with the newly dropped eggs in the tank for the ich? Should I move the male and eggs to the 20gal? What should I use to treat the ich that won't hurt my eggs? What would you do?
I used to quarn any new fish that I bought, but had no interest on any more fish so I took that tank down to setup the breeder tank so I don't really have a hospital tank at the moment. And figures that the one time she adds new fish to the tank when I at work the tank gets ich!
Please help fast! don't want to hurt the eggs!!

Wow, that's really a drag! I definitely would NOT move the male and eggs into your 20 gal. Much too great a chance of transferring the ich to that tank.

Don't panic, your main objective should be to treat the 90 gal to save the fish in it, if the eggs don't survive your pair will spawn again very soon- once they start they are almost impossible to stop!

Ich can only be killed when it is off the fish, during it's life cycle. So any water from the tank is potentially contaminated. There are several remedies/treatment protocols.
One treatment involves slowly raising the temperature to 80 - 82 to speed up the life cycle of the parasite, and treating the tank with salt. BN are somewhat sensitive to salt, but careful observation will tell you if the fish are overly stressed. I can't recommend an amount, perhaps someone else can.

Another way is to actually kill the parasite with heat alone. It is believed it cannot reproduce at temps above 85 degrees. A temp of 86 degrees has to be maintained for at least 10 days, and CANNOT be combined with any medication as the combination will reduce the oxygen too much. You should increase aeration to compensate if you choose the high heat method.

Over the counter remedies usually contain copper sulfate, another chemical BN are sensitive to, but many people use them at half dose, sometimes with salt and a slight raise in temp (80- 82) as well. If you use carbon in your filter you will need to remove it. (It isn't needed anyway, except for medication removal after treatment).

Before any treatment you should do a thorough gravel vac and a substantial water change. Excess organics can interfere with meds, and the cleaning can also remove many of the off the fish parasites.

That's about all I can tell you. If you browse in the hospital category you will find more info. Like I said however, as hard as it is don't sweat over this particular spawn (you never know, they may make it!). You don't want to risk the pair when they will give you MANY more eggs if you keep them healthy.

Best of luck!
Sarah

Hi,I wouldn't put the male and eggs into the other tank as you risk spreading ich to that tank too.I am not sure what to advise you to buy for treating it as you are in USA.Here in U.K I recommend Esha exit and Esha 2000.Hopefully Doug or someone else will be along soon to help you out on what to use.You will need to do gravel vacs every other day also.

P.S I moved your post here as it was in the introductions section.


Sorry Sarah i was posting at the same time as you



Bristlenoses

Well I went to the lps and they told me that I have a delicate issue, and advised me to raise the temp up to 82-83 degrees, and use an all natural Kordon Ick Attack to treat the ick, Easy Life Voogle to boost immune systems of the fish, and I bought and installed a new U.V Sterilizer that I spliced into the return line off one of my canisters. Then they said to pray the eggs make it. I have followed all the directions plus gravel vacced, and did a water change before starting the treatment.
Please still give me any advice you can. What would you do if this were your situation? I have come to grips that I am probly gonna lose the eggs or fry, but I will do anything to save the eggs if it can be done! Thanks for the replies guys!

aidenh48 wrote:

Well I went to the lps and they told me that I have a delicate issue, and advised me to raise the temp up to 82-83 degrees, and use an all natural Kordon Ick Attack to treat the ick, Easy Life Voogle to boost immune systems of the fish, and I bought and installed a new U.V Sterilizer that I spliced into the return line off one of my canisters. Then they said to pray the eggs make it. I have followed all the directions plus gravel vacced, and did a water change before starting the treatment.
Please still give me any advice you can. What would you do if this were your situation? I have come to grips that I am probly gonna lose the eggs or fry, but I will do anything to save the eggs if it can be done! Thanks for the replies guys!

I've heard positive things about Easy Life Voogle, and the UV sterilizer is an excellent addition. Kordons Ich Attack gets mixed reviews. Some say (even the company itself) that it is most effective only if started very early in the disease process, that it is more effective as a "preventative" than actual treatment. So I am not sure about using just that. I know you are desperate to spare the eggs, but if it were me I would treat more aggressively. Ich often invades the fish's gills where you cannot see it, and it does the most damage there as well. So it may have started even before you noticed the white spots.

These are my feelings on the issue. Forget about the eggs and treat the existing fish as effectively as possible. Eggs do not have feelings or suffer. Fish with advanced ich seem to suffer greatly from it. Sorry to be so blunt, but I would hate to see you delay a more effective treatment and lose fish that could be saved. They WILL spawn again, it's almost a given!

Sorry you are faced with this dilemma, do what seems right to you and best of luck whatever you decide.

Sarah

No you are right! I am just gonna treat the tank properly, and wait for them to spawn again. It hurts even more cause this would have been my first spawn. I have been going crazy making everything perfect, and giving them the best conditions possible, and when I woke up this morning to a fanning male with about 100 or so eggs, I was on cloud nine! THEN THE ICH!!! Right back down to earth! So I can't even enjoy my first spawn. And both females dropped thier eggs too!!!! IT SUCKS!!! Oh well, I don't want to lose my fish trying to save eggs. Thanks for the honesty! That is why I joined this site!!

Fish can make you crazy, yes it certainly does SUCK big time, so sorry.
Ich is never fun, and having it hit along with your first spawn makes it extra tough.

Feed your BN (and other fish of course) extra well during treatment. Your male may not eat right now, but put some of his favorite veg near his cave to encourage him, and replace it daily. If you use frozen or live foods for the others, give them small amounts several times a day. Don't overfeed, just try to keep everybody eating by spoiling them a bit. It will help them fight off the disease and tolerate the treatment. The higher temp should make them eat more unless their mouths are affected.

Again, best of luck, keep us posted, and have a drink or two!

Sarah

Hi,try not to worry too much,the eggs may still survive yet.Make sure you have lots of oxygenation now that you have turned up the temp and keep on with the gravel vaccs regularly.

Please keep us informed of the progress and i wish you good luck.



Bristlenoses

I just wet through Ich over New Years and it was an extremely resistant case. Took 20 days of treatment to kick it in the butt! Eventually the only thing that worked for me was Tetra's lifeguard. I used it at full strength with 4 scaleless fish and they all made it. It can reduce your biological filtration so close monitoring of the fish is essential. I also boosted the salt and heat. I'd focus on the fish at hand and not the eggs. It sucks to lose a batch but it would be worse to loose the whole tank IMO. Good luck!

Thank you guys for the advice! I am treating the tank to kill the ich, and not stress over the eggs. I do have a few more questions though since this would have been my first spawn of fry. What are the signs that the eggs are dead? What does it look like when there is fungus on the eggs? If eggs do die should I remove them from the tank? Will daddy know that the eggs are dead? Please give me as much info as possible because I don't want to stress out my fish anymore then they already are!
As of now I thought that both females dropped the same night as they both are skinnier, and there was a ton of eggs, but when i looked in there about an hour ago, there is almost tripple the amount of eggs as there were yesterday. So one of the females obviously dropped some eggs in there either last night or sometime today when i was at work! I am hoping that is a good sign that the fish are dealing with the situation well. The eggs are currently orange and the first pile of eggs has a white spot on each (not white spot spots) and the male is going crazy fanning them. I don't see any ich on the male or on any of the eggs. Neither of my females have any noticable ich either. I don't see any fuzzy stuff on the eggs or anything that would make me ask questions yet, but I am still real new to the spawning of bn. So please fill me in on everything to look for when it comes to the eggs.
When I noticed the ich, there really wasn't alot. Between all the tetras and plecos i only count about 15-20 spots and only a few of the fish have the spots. Is this considered a light case of the ich? Anyway, I am treating to kill!!!!! (the ich I mean)
Well I will keep updating the progress of the situ, and again please give me any and all info on what to keep an eye out for when it comes to the eggs!

The eggs sound good,they should be orange and then get a white spot so all is normal.Dad is fanning away and sounds quite happy.You will know if the eggs are no good as they will go fungussed and have white furry stuff growing on them.Dad will leave them if they are no good.It only takes a few days for them to hatch.Try not to keep looking at them and disturbing the male or you will stress him out too much and he may abandon them.All sounds well with the eggs just concentrate on the ich now.You really need to try and kill the ich because if the new babies get it it can kill them quite easily.


Bristlenoses

Take heed of Bristlenoses advice!
And it does sound good so far! Eggs are actually fairly resilient as far as chemicals are concerned, so if you get the parasites under control now your fry stand a much better chance. It's very good to hear your BN don't have any visible spots, and that the male is behaving normally. And don't worry, as you are finding out those girls will quite quickly fill with eggs again.. and again..and again
and the male will welcome them in again... and again...and again

Sounds like you're doing a great job

Sarah

Update:
The eggs hatched today! They were sneaking out of the breeding tube, apparently without daddy knowing, with sacs attached. I have been scooping them up and putting in a floating breeder/fry saver, and have it in the path of the water jet coming from the pump that has an air tube attached which has been helping keep as much oxygen in the water as possible because of the heat increase. So they are getting a steady shot of oxygenated water to keep them going!
As far as the ich, I don't see any spots on any of the fish except one tiny clown loach that I want to move, and will be moving. The loach is absolutely covered in spots and seems like it is getting worse on him and gone from the rest of the fish. I know that clown loaches are prone to white spot, and I want to rehome him, but can't cause who is gonna take him infested with ich! So I don't know what to do!
My new questions are.... Will the babies do ok in the floating breeder as long as they get good 02? What would you do about the loach? If all the other fish are now spot free but the loach is getting worse, is my tank getting better, or is the ich just focusing on that one fish?
Sarah, and bristle noses and everyone else thanks for the advice. I'm glad I joined this site as everyone is so helpful!!!

It was one of my clown loaches that got it too! I didn't end up moving him. I figured if he had it, the whole tank could possibly be infected because Ich has a phase in its life cycle where it lives in the gravel. Check out this post I just made of my battle with Ich.

http://www.bristlenoseworld.com/t4596-a-recent-battle-with-ich#32768

Hi,you may not see spots on other fish but if the loach has lots then the ich is still in the tank and possible on the other fish inside their gills where you can't see it.Ich is extremely contagious so you need to treat the tank with something that will kill ich.You have to just keep on with it for a few weeks in my opinion.Keep gravel vaccing every other day and do it well and replace meds in the new water.Also make sure there is no carbon in any filters.

You can't rehome the loach until you have treated the tank and killed all the ich.


Bristlenoses

Is the breeding tube open on both ends? Usually they can't get out past the male this young.
Regardless, since they are getting out, then you need to protect them from the other fish so it sounds like you are doing right.
Again, I've always had the dads do all the work for me so I'll let someone else advise you further on their care in this unique situation.

As for your clown loach, again I'm going to be totally honest. If all the others looked clean, and only that one fish was still visibly covered with parasites, I would probably humanely euthanize it. You MUST still continue the treatment, even if you don't see spots, for the full recommended time period however.
It is your call, if the fish is still eating and doesn't seem miserable, then I might give it more time. But if everyone else is improving and that fish is getting worse I would likely euthanize. That will not remove the ich from the tank though, so continued treatment is essential no matter what you decide about that particular fish. There is no right or wrong decision, it's a judgement call.
Sarah

I am definitely still gonna treat the whole tank for a long while as I don't want another out break down the road. The clown loach is covered and is the only one in the tank with spots. I was gonna rehome him before I saw the ich do to the fact that they are egg finders and when I knew my females were gravid I started looking for a new home. I wouldn't give him to anyone knowing he had ich. The loach is still eating and acting fine except for the flashing and the visible ich covering him. I thought about putting him down but I can't do it until I see he is suffering. So either the ich is gonna clear and he is gone or he starts to suffer then he is gone.
The tube the male and babies are in is closed at one end so only one way in and out! I would guess there was about 120-150 eggs and about 50 or so have got out and I netted them and have them in the floating breeder. They stay all schooled up in the breeder like the ones still in the cave with the male. I only get a chance to see the babies when the male comes all the way out of the tube to feed or stretch and I usually get about 30 seconds or so to take a look. Other then that I leave him and them alone.

Hi,it sounds like you are doing a great job,i hope the ich goes away soon.Sounds like the cave was probably bursting with babies so some spilled out.You have done the right thing and congrats on the babies.You will need to start feeding the babies once they have used up their egg sac which takes a few days.


Bristlenoses

Yes, they can eat the veggies that the parents eat right? I mostly feed mommies and daddy zucchini, yellow squash seems to be the favorite, cucumber, algae wafers, and they sometimes take a bite at flake food for thr other fish. My understanding is they can eat the veggies as soon as the use up the yolk sac. If there is something better to feed the babies please let me know. I'm surprised the babies are doing so well with the high water temp, and the ich treatment meds. I have 3 air pumps running and two of the pumps are connected to the pumps for the ugf, so the jets spread the air out all thru the tank. All my plants, wood, and plumbing are covered in bubbles so the tank is getting super o2! So the babies are getting plenty of air, and so far they are handling the ich meds, and its been twos day and haven't lost one yet! So I'm pretty happy considering I was prepared to lose them all to treat the tank!
The ich situ is still the same as of now. Except for the water color, and the loach, you wouldn't know there was an ich out break. I haven't seen the loach at all the last 24hrs or so, and he is usually out and about all the time. I looked around for him for a while so he must be in the fake driftwood piece in the tank. I lifted the real driftwood up to see if he was under there, and flipped over the one little cave hideout and nothing. I only looking for him this invasive is to see if he is dead somewhere do to how covered he is with white spot. My plan is to continue to treat the tank until I don't see any white spots at all anywhere, then still treat for another 1.5-2weeks to make sure I don't get another outbreak down the road. I still doing heavy gravel vacs every other day and I bought a second uv sterilizer, but this one is an internal one. The uv I bought last week is connected to my return line from one of my canisters. I think I have covered everything but if there is something else that may help the situ or will benefit my tanks after ich is gone please let me know.
Again thank you all for the advice, and I'm glad I joined this group!!!!

Your foods sound fine, the babies will eat the same things as the adults. I also give mine lightly steamed FRESH (not canned) spinach, since it will sink if steamed a bit. Or I feed the leaves raw attached to a veggie clip. About the only thing I've noticed the babies go nuts for more than the adults is raw mushrooms. Maybe it's just soft and easy to rasp.

I would try to locate that poor little loach if at all possible. If he's passed on you don't want his body affecting your water quality. The second UV filter can only help, so good for you! Sounds like you are doing everything possible and then some.

Keep us posted, Sarah

All sounds excellent,what is it you are treating the ich with? I know you have already said but i have forgotten and it will save me trying to find where you said it.Those foods sound good,babies like food that is a little on the softer side.All my bristlenoses love canned green beans so you could also give those a try.


Bristlenoses

I completely agree with the canned green beans! And they just saved my arse. I just had a pretty bad bout of bronchitis. Needless to say I wasn't going to the store to buy things for me let alone my fish. But I had canned green beans so I didn't even give it a second thought and the fish couldn't have been happier. I always keep these on hand just in case and they LOVE them!

Hey guys. I have given my adults canned green beans and they won't touch it. But I will try with the babies. I want and try to give my fish the biggest variety of foods I can but something's they just won't touch.
I found the loach, actually he was swimming around when I got home from work. He actually looks better! He isn't completely clear of it but 75% of him is clear. Other then that NO other fish have any visible ich. I am gonna treat for two full weeks after all spots gone. I am treating with Biospheres Maracide for ich velvet and parasites. I have been treating with the full dose, and have not lost a single fish so far and only one dead baby! I'm really happy with this stuff. I have used it in past and always has done then job. I started to treat the tank with Kordons Ich Attack to save the eggs but haven't heard good things about it and didn't want to risk my fish to possibly save some off the eggs. And ironically the strong stuff hasn't hurt the babies.

My first loss. In my 20gal along with my breeders I had a 6 month old long fin albino female I was raising to ad to the breeding group and she has passed. I don't know why as everything is normal, water temp at 78 degrees, water test are normal ammonia 0ppm, nitrites 0ppm, and nitrates about .5 ppm, ph 7.2 and no visible disease or parasite or anything. So I don't get it! Sucks to cause she was a beautiful female!
Now a quick question about my babies, when exactly should I start giving them veggies? They're egg sac are almost gone but still visible. Should I wait till I can't see anymore of the orange sac, or put the veggies in now or before the sacs are completely gone? My guess would be that at the speed the sacs have been shrinking in another day or so they will be completely gone.
My group in the 20gal I think is gonna spawn tonight or today sometime! My male is in his tube, and the females are hanging around the front when they normally don't and one keeps trying to get in, but male hasn't let her yet. The females are gravid and one of the albino females is super fat with eggs! If they all drop it will be a huge spawn! That would help heal the loss of my long fin female!

So sorry . I think from your post that this is a different tank than the one you're treating? If so, I'm sure you've looked, but I'd REALLY look over all the other fish in that tank, ich can be spread by just a drop of contaminated water and if it attacked the gills you can lose a fish without seeing any spots.

As far as the babies, I'd put some food in now and just change it frequently so it doesn't break down and affect the water quality, esp with the higher temp. I wouldn't go by what your adults like or don't like, babies are eating machines and will try most anything. Adults can get fixated on certain foods, probably depending on what they were fed as babies. Offer your babies most any raw veg, leafy dark green, and the canned (unsalted) green beans. Any that are ready will start chowing down.

Yup, sounds like more little ones are just around the corner, the girls don't try to invade the castle for no reason! I hope you are lining up homes or talking to your LFS, it's amazing how fast the numbers multiply!

Really sorry you lost your female, its extra frustrating when it comes out of nowhere like that.

Sarah