Calling all angelfish keepers!

Just lookin for tips or any useful advice.

My club is about to do a grow out competition for angels. We will be getting 3-5 each and they'll probably be dime sized from a local breeder. I jut set up a 40g breeder that I want to basically dedicate to the competition. Tank mates will be 3 clown loaches and 2 BNs.

The temp is a steady 79 ATM. I usually feed a high protein flake food. A mix between omega one, aquaeon, and zoo meds earthworm flakes. I also feed frozen beef heart, brine shrimp, and bloodworms.

What water parameters do yours thrive in?

Btw, I am not looking to do anything extreme or unnatural!

ktk05 wrote:

Just lookin for tips or any useful advice.

My club is about to do a grow out competition for angels. We will be getting 3-5 each and they'll probably be dime sized from a local breeder. I jut set up a 40g breeder that I want to basically dedicate to the competition. Tank mates will be 3 clown loaches and 2 BNs.

The temp is a steady 79 ATM. I usually feed a high protein flake food. A mix between omega one, aquaeon, and zoo meds earthworm flakes. I also feed frozen beef heart, brine shrimp, and bloodworms.

What water parameters do yours thrive in?

Btw, I am not looking to do anything extreme or unnatural!

Within reason most domestic strains will do fine and even breed in a wide range of parameters, so I wouldn't worry much on that. Raise the temp to 80 - 82 degrees.
I would add driftwood for the tannins, so don't soak or boil them away -just a few minutes in boiling water to clean it.
Minimal turbulence, you don't want your angels burning the energy they need to grow fighting strong currents - their bodies aren't built for it.
Feed several times a day. Baby angels will eat hourly. Newly hatched bbs outperforms most any other food IMO.
Frozen foods are good, but you have to be careful with naive immune systems- thaw and rinse WELL in cold water before feeding.
Use a high protein flake, avoid ones with a lot of filler ingredients (wheat, soy, rice, etc.)
Feed a high spirulina content food at least 2 - 3 times week.
WATER CHANGES!!! 50% to 60% two to three times a week, minimum.

Good luck with the competition, Sara

yeah, agreed. High quality food BBS is a must and lost of regular water changes. you want them to think they are in a huge tank...or better still put them in a huge tank!!

Thanks for the advice guys! Here are the little guys acclimating to their new tank. I got 6 in total at last night's meeting but I believe one did not make it :,( The other 5 are active and eating well! They are currently just smaller than my fingernail. The treasurer estimated them to be about 2 weeks old, but admitted they aren't really his specialty. What do you guys think?

Also have you tried frozen BBS? I am so busy with work and school I thought it might be an acceptable alternative to freshly hatched. I could hatch some 2 maybe 3 times weekly... So far they are accepting high protein crushes flakes no problem.

Tank makes now include 10 juvie LF corydoras aeneus, albino Ramshorn snails, and a couple tiger nerite snails. I figured with as much as they will be fed the tank needs a good clean up crew.

Probably closer to four weeks, give or take. Even though they may learn to take it, I don't start offering flake at this age yet. They have too much growing in too short a time to get what they need from flake foods. Live bbs and occasionally spirulina fed microworms, 100% until older.

Frozen bbs may or may not be taken, freshly hatched is far preferable. They will eat more of it, and it will live a few hours in fresh water meaning they can and will feed again and again as their stomachs empty.

If the frozen bbs was even partially thawed and refrozen anytime after production, the bacteria levels can easily sicken and kill young fry.

Get or make yourself two brine shrimp hatcheries, start a new batch every 24 hrs. Rinse the bbs in fresh water before feeding. Toss anything older then 12-18 hours post hatching, the yolk sacs are gone, the shrimp have very little nutritional value, and bacteria levels will begin to rise. (You can still feed it to your older fish if you want, just rinse well and give them a treat).

The cories may or may not be a concern, this age fry has little resistance to foreign "bugs". So it's a crap shoot. If you feed live foods carefully, overfeeding shouldn't be an issue, so scavenger fish aren't necessarily needed.

If you're using anything other than sponge filters, cover the intakes and possibly reduce the flow or you may find them unable to fight the pull and stuck against it.

Good luck, Sarah

Thanks! I covered the intake of the HOB with a net and reduced the flow to its lowest setting. I am off to the pet store now! Hoping to find a hatchery or two. If not, I can do the two liter deal. I also have some powdered fry food that a breeder I like makes. I want to try this as well. I will update periodically.

Just a couple more thoughts. In your original post you thought they would be dime size juveniles, so the 40 gal tank was fine for them. These guys are pea size fry, they would still be closely grouped and following the parent fish at this age. You may find they get a bit "lost" in such a big tank, and you may need to overfeed the live bbs for a while in order for them to find enough food right now. I would have actually suggested a smaller 5 -10 gal bare bottom tank for them until they attained more size.

The cories will out compete them for any bbs on the bottom, so you will need to add extra. They will probably hide quite a bit for a while. That's normal with such a small group and no parent fish to follow and guard them. Give them some live plants to hang together in.

They look dark in the pic, but it's hard to tell. What color variety are they?

Again, good luck with the competition, Sarah

They are either all black or all black with gold bellies. I thought they were all black and my friend says his have gold bellies. I have put a feeding ring in for the flake food and that seems to be working great! I am out trying to find BBS eggs right now... They all tend to group together near the back behind some plants until feedin time.

ktk05 wrote:

They are either all black or all black with gold bellies. I thought they were all black and my friend says his have gold bellies. I have put a feeding ring in for the flake food and that seems to be working great! I am out trying to find BBS eggs right now... They all tend to group together near the back behind some plants until feedin time.

Do you know what your friend is feeding his? I don't mean to sound negative, but the gold bellies he's seeing are probably just nice full bellies, that's how they should look even on all blacks at this age. If your's are from the same spawn and you aren't seeing that, chances are they aren't getting enough to eat. Young angel fry will often give any small bits of food a try, appearing to eat, but they often are only mouthing it and spitting it back out because it doesn't feel or taste right to them.

Sarah

He is feeding his flakes. I see mine go up to the feeding ring and appear to be eating the powder food and the flake food. I have some BBS hatching out right now. I haven't got too close to mine yet, I don't want to scare them too bad.

So today a retired angel breeder came to my house to buy some of my swordtails. He helped me harvest my first batch of BBS. I am thinking I may have harvested them too soon as the water was not golden like the pics I have seen. Maybe the shrimp hadn't developed their yolk sac yet? It was roughly 25 hours that they were bubbling. I saw them go for the BBS!

Today the person responsible for aquiring the donations of these angels said he was told the angels had been raised on crushed flakes. Is that even possible??

He (retired breeder) suggested I put them In my 55 with my swordtail babies since I feed that tank so often as well and am not hugely concerned with overfeeding because of the sheer number of fish. I am considering it, but skeptical to move such young babies AGAIN! Also the tank they're in now has much softer water and a lower pH due to tannins from the wood and peat in the filter.

ktk05 wrote:

So today a retired angel breeder came to my house to buy some of my swordtails. He helped me harvest my first batch of BBS. I am thinking I may have harvested them too soon as the water was not golden like the pics I have seen. Maybe the shrimp hadn't developed their yolk sac yet? It was roughly 25 hours that they were bubbling. I saw them go for the BBS!

Today the person responsible for aquiring the donations of these angels said he was told the angels had been raised on crushed flakes. Is that even possible??

He (retired breeder) suggested I put them In my 55 with my swordtail babies since I feed that tank so often as well and am not hugely concerned with overfeeding because of the sheer number of fish. I am considering it, but skeptical to move such young babies AGAIN! Also the tank they're in now has much softer water and a lower pH due to tannins from the wood and peat in the filter.

If the shrimp are hatched, they are ready to feed, the sooner the better. The yolk sac doesn't develop, it is already part of the egg itself. It only diminishes with time.

Your hatch may look more brownish due to either a fair amount of unhatched eggs (which is ok, the ones hatched are still ready to use) or not giving the shells long enough time to separate before harvesting.

A really fluorescent orange color indicates high quality eggs leaving few unhatched eggs, an older culture of still live but nutrient poor shrimp or a dense quantity of hatched cysts from using more eggs per liter than usual.

Depending on the source of your eggs, my guess is the first, lots of unhatched eggs. Eggs are graded by hatch rate, from about 65% to a 90% hatch with premium eggs. How they were/are stored will also affect the hatch rate, keep them refrigerated short term, frozen long term.

When you turn off the air, the unhatched eggs sink, you will see them at the bottom. The empty shells float to the surface. The live bbs also sink and collect at the bottom.
If the live shrimp all go to the top and congregate under the film of shells, they are older and no longer very nutritious for fry, though they will look very bright orange.

As far as raising from freeswimming on flake, it's possible. The mortality rate will be extremely high, only a very small % of a spawn will make it, most starve to death. (It's also possible there were microorganisms available that sustained some of the survivors early on.)
Other problems, besides ridiculously high mortality, are slow/poor growth and generally poor quality adults. I'm not sure why someone would choose to breed angelfish and deliberately allow most of the fry to starve to death. Culling is one thing, not providing food is another. Perhaps it was an experiment of some kind, but if so it's one that's already been done many times with the same results.

They likely would do better in your fry tank, but if you've adjusted them to a different hardness and PH, they would have to be acclimated slowly.

Anyway, I'm happy your fry are now receiving a rich and more appropriate diet. Good luck with them!

Sarah

Sorry for all the questions, I just want to give these guys a fair chance at survival. I am not overly concerned with the competition and having them grow the largest. I feel like they are at a critical point in their development and I really just want to do what's best for them. I plan on keeping these guys after the competition is over so I am thinking more long term than the next 3 months.

Have you ever experienced BBS causing swim bladder disease? I just read thAt if you feed BBS too much it can cause swim bladder disease. How much is too much? Also, I have successfully raised livebearers on hard boiled egg yolk and my friend (same as mentioned before) used it to raise some gourami. Would angels benefit from this? That other thread made me think of it. Not sure why it didn't pop into my head sooner, lol.

Thanks again! You have been the best of help : )

There is some disagreement among breeders as to whether or not angelfish fry can actually experience problems related to overeating any food, not specifically bbs, but this debate concerns extremely young fry, not pea size juveniles such as you have.

Also, like dropsy, swim bladder disorders are not a specific disease, but a symptom with various causes. I don't know what you read, but feeding angelfish live bbs isn't one of the causes.

How much is too much?
Too much is if you feed them more than they eat and neglect to remove the excess.

The best thing you can do for them nutritionally is feed them all the newly hatched live bbs they will eat at least twice a day. Simple as that.

Egg yolk would be a poor substitute, so no, I don't think they would benefit from it.

A tiny pinch of premium flake once in a while won't necessarily hurt as long as it isn't in place of a feeding of bbs.

You are correct that they are in a critical stage of development, as they have been since birth. They apparently have not received optimal nutrition to this point, all you can do is provide that now and hope for the best.

Sarah

Awesome. Thanks again!

I don't know why but whenever I read your user name I read it as Sarah HD, lol. When I tell my BF and my fish friend (his name is Sarge) about your advice I always refer to you as my online friend Sarah HD. Eventually the "online" title disappeared, so Sarah HD it is! I hope you don't mind.

ktk05 wrote:

Awesome. Thanks again!

I don't know why but whenever I read your user name I read it as Sarah HD, lol. When I tell my BF and my fish friend (his name is Sarge) about your advice I always refer to you as my online friend Sarah HD. Eventually the "online" title disappeared, so Sarah HD it is! I hope you don't mind.

High Definition! Cool

I am sad to report that they have all passed :,( I am super bummed. I had just figured out how to seperate the shrimp from the shells while harvesting so not as many shells for into the tank... And to top it off the cories got tail/fin rot. I'm not a happy camper right now.

I don't think the angels were ready to be rehomed so soon. Many other club members are experiencing high losses as well. One girl has 5/6 left and she put them into a marina HOB breeder box. Two club members have 3/6 left which were put In a 10 gallon, and one club member has 1/5 left, also put Into a 10gallon.

The friendly competition took kind of a morbid turn. I think it would have been better if we had gotten older angels like originally planned.

ktk05 wrote:

I am sad to report that they have all passed :,( I am super bummed. I had just figured out how to seperate the shrimp from the shells while harvesting so not as many shells for into the tank... And to top it off the cories got tail/fin rot. I'm not a happy camper right now.

I don't think the angels were ready to be rehomed so soon. Many other club members are experiencing high losses as well. One girl has 5/6 left and she put them into a marina HOB breeder box. Two club members have 3/6 left which were put In a 10 gallon, and one club member has 1/5 left, also put Into a 10gallon.

The friendly competition took kind of a morbid turn. I think it would have been better if we had gotten older angels like originally planned.

I'm so sorry. It is hardly your or the other members of your clubs fault since you are correct. They were far too young.

It has recently become a common practice to sell "pea" size baby angels, you will find them on AquaBid all the time. The reasoning is a breeder can move a lot to one person, and one person can get many to raise and pick from for breeding at a cheap price. They survive shipping well, and they ship more cheaply.

All that being said, it is really only appropriate for experienced breeders who know how to care for such young fry, and are willing to accept that some may still need to be culled as defects may yet appear.

The angels should have been 6-8 weeks old and dime size at least for it to be a fair. Then it would have truly been a grow out competition rather than a "see who can keep them alive" contest.

Again, I'm really sorry, but you did your best. Had any survived there's a good chance they would have been stunted or suffered other issues from their compromised start in life. I'm sure you can find someone breeding quality angels that would be happy to donate appropriate age juvies with the potential to mature into adults they are proud of. I know I'd be more than happy to if I lived in your area.

Sarah

One of our new members had offered to donate his, I think he only held back because they aren't big enough yet....go figure. I can't remember the color variety his are but I would feel a lot better knowing exactly where they came from and what kind of start they had.

I do have a new found respect for all you angel breeders! They are sooo involved!

ktk05 wrote:

One of our new members had offered to donate his, I think he only held back because they aren't big enough yet....go figure. I can't remember the color variety his are but I would feel a lot better knowing exactly where they came from and what kind of start they had.

I do have a new found respect for all you angel breeders! They are sooo involved!

That was a very nice compliment, thank you. Your new member sounds like someone to get some juveniles from if your club decides to try again.

How are the cories doing?

Sarah

They are making a good turn around, thanks I lost two but the others are doing marvelous. I will continue the treatment for the full 7 days as the package Indicates, but the fin rot has cleared and they are eating a super active again!