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 No Gravel.......

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Curby
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PostSubject: No Gravel.......   Sun Feb 01, 2009 8:05 pm

So i decided to change from having gravel to not having any atol in my smaller tank....
In hope that it would be easier to clean...
only prob now is the plec poo shows up like mad scratch
is this normal, plus i have to move everything about when i vac it...
Does this also mean if i move cave's about and other stuff will it disturb the plec community alot???
Or is there easier ways around this????
Cheers CuRbY......... scratch

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Dane
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PostSubject: Re: No Gravel.......   Sun Feb 01, 2009 11:28 pm

Bare bottom tanks (bbt) have there ups and downs mate

first of all they really good to keep clean as you can see all the un- eatin food etc

reckomend you either paint your bottom of your tank externally black or lie a binbag under it to stop what ever is underneath scarying fish and reflection aswell

bad thing is over a period of time if bottom of tank aint scrubbed a thin layer ie a film of bacteria forms there and absorbs all the good stuff outa the water there for the fish drown so to speak

perks of having a substrate are vast healthy bacteria grow well and helps with your filter system

you can run a undergravel filter

as for moving caves about and that wont make a diff i used to always move my tanks around not as much now

its better for fry in tank as you can over feed them then get all un eating food outa tank when you have done


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"L Number mad
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PostSubject: Re: No Gravel.......   Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:18 pm

I have used gravel substrate and and no gravel to breed, and it didn't really matter to my plecs, but i will agree with dane plain bottom tanks can gather a film after a while and can be toxic sometimes, so if you are going for this option when cleaning out the poo and uneaten food give the bottom a wipe over to, what i use is a stick with a piece of sponge on it and just run it along the base of the tank works a treat. cheers
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PostSubject: Re: No Gravel.......   Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:23 pm

"L Number mad wrote:
I have used gravel substrate and and no gravel to breed, and it didn't really matter to my plecs, but i will agree with dane plain bottom tanks can gather a film after a while and can be toxic sometimes, so if you are going for this option when cleaning out the poo and uneaten food give the bottom a wipe over to, what i use is a stick with a piece of sponge on it and just run it along the base of the tank works a treat. cheers

would the plecs not clean the glass bottom??? scratch

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Dane
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PostSubject: Re: No Gravel.......   Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:36 pm

they will of food but not bacteria mate



Dane
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PostSubject: Re: No Gravel.......   Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:18 pm

yes mate they will clean the bottom of any food or algae, but it's the waste that will cause the problem, as it will break down slowly and create a tin film giving off sometimes dedly toxins and if your plecs where to keep eating or cleaning over this film it could make them very ill, but regular cleaning will prevent this,
but i have read somewhere that a few snails can clean this film away no probs, does anyone no if snails would interupt while the plecs are breeding
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Dane
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PostSubject: Re: No Gravel.......   Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:27 pm

snails dont bother with breeding however you dont want mass snails because of the ammonia problem they will cause

if you have eggs in a fry trap add a few mts they will help by cleaning eggs of any fungus etc

heres shanes article of the bateria

When I first started to breed plecos I used a thin layer of fine gravel in the raring tanks and I had no problems raising them, but after I read about other breeders that use no substrate I tried that technique. If nothing else, it made it easier to vacuum and keep the tank clean from waste and foods. In no time at all I started experiencing problems keeping my fry alive; one by one, with a day or so between they started to die. In the beginning I thought the problem was the water rather than any disease because there was too few dying, but the deaths never stopped how much water I changed. I can't tell for sure what was going wrong but I have my ideas about what caused the problem; after some months a bacteria film built up on the bottom glass which feels like a thin slimy coat to the touch. My thoughts about this are that the bacteria consume lots of oxygen and their end product is nitrogen which makes first, lower millimeters of water low in oxygen and high in levels of nitrogen instead. Small fry that live on the bottom practically swim, breathe and live in just this layer; their mouth and gills are, at most, 1 mm up from the bottom glass. Their oxygen level starts to decrease in their blood and the immune system weakens until they fall prey to bacteria or die from high levels of nitrogen in their blood; they are essentially “drowning”. The first symptom is faster breathing followed by the loss of fin parts as bacteria attack them. I also think that the symptoms of gas, making their bellies look like a balloon is caused by the same condition; fluid containing high levels of nitrogen fills their stomachs.


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PostSubject: Re: No Gravel.......   Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:31 pm

nice thread dane cheers
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PostSubject: Re: No Gravel.......   Tue Feb 03, 2009 9:00 am

here is another rough guide

Substrate Materials

The substrate material used in a tank may be purely decorative, or it may serve a particular purpose - such as forming part of the filtration (as in UGF) or as a rooting medium for growing plants. The two most commonly used substrate materials are gravel and sand.

Gravel is available in a range of sizes from 'pea' gravel to fine (2-3mm) size. It is also available in many colours and textures in addition to the 'natural' gravel. Pea-sized gravel is probably the most commonly employed; larger sizes can allow debris to fall between the stones where it will decay and affect water quality. For planted tanks, it is often advantageous to use a finer grade of gravel, which should be the lime-free type. Note that many gravels sold for aquarium use are not lime-free unless they specifically say so.
Picture of different gravels and sands

Coral gravel can be used to help maintain hardness and pH in hard-water setups. However, it is often sharp-edged and may damage the bodies of fish which like to dig (such as cichlids) - it is therefore better to place the gravel in a filter or use coral sand instead.

Sand is also available in different grades and colours. Fine lime-free silica sand ('silver sand') is usually available from DIY stores and garden centers. It will often be graded and prewashed, although an additional rinse is advisable for aquarium use. Fine grade sands intended specifically for aquarium use are also available, which may be cleaner and require little or no pre-washing. Sand is particularly useful for tanks containing bottom feeders with delicate barbels - Corydoras catfish, for example, seem to enjoy rooting around in the sandy substrate for food. It is generally easy to keep clean as debris remains on top of the sand. Sand should not be used with an undergravel filtration system as it compacts down too hard.

Some manufacturers produce special substrates for use in planted tanks. Some are designed to be mixed with gravel or sand, whilst others can be used alone. They are usually clay-based and rich in iron and other nutrients and trace elements required by plants.

Despite the improved aesthetics provided by a gravel or sand substrate, there are some situations where it may be preferable to omit the substrate altogether. These include tanks for fry-rearing and isolation/quarantine tanks, where the tank needs to be easy to clean thoroughly.

Recommended substrate material

Summary: Recommended substrate materials Tank setup

General community tank Natural pea-gravel or silica sand

Planted tank Fine lime-free gravel and/or nutrient substrate additive
Soft water fishes Lime-free gravel or silica sand
Cichlids from hard water Natural gravel, silica sand or coral sand
Breeding tanks No substrate or thin layer of sand
Quarantine/isolation tanks No substrate
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Curby
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PostSubject: Re: No Gravel.......   Fri Feb 06, 2009 9:01 am

Dane wrote:
snails dont bother with breeding however you dont want mass snails because of the ammonia problem they will cause

if you have eggs in a fry trap add a few mts they will help by cleaning eggs of any fungus etc

heres shanes article of the bateria

When I first started to breed plecos I used a thin layer of fine gravel in the raring tanks and I had no problems raising them, but after I read about other breeders that use no substrate I tried that technique. If nothing else, it made it easier to vacuum and keep the tank clean from waste and foods. In no time at all I started experiencing problems keeping my fry alive; one by one, with a day or so between they started to die. In the beginning I thought the problem was the water rather than any disease because there was too few dying, but the deaths never stopped how much water I changed. I can't tell for sure what was going wrong but I have my ideas about what caused the problem; after some months a bacteria film built up on the bottom glass which feels like a thin slimy coat to the touch. My thoughts about this are that the bacteria consume lots of oxygen and their end product is nitrogen which makes first, lower millimeters of water low in oxygen and high in levels of nitrogen instead. Small fry that live on the bottom practically swim, breathe and live in just this layer; their mouth and gills are, at most, 1 mm up from the bottom glass. Their oxygen level starts to decrease in their blood and the immune system weakens until they fall prey to bacteria or die from high levels of nitrogen in their blood; they are essentially “drowning”. The first symptom is faster breathing followed by the loss of fin parts as bacteria attack them. I also think that the symptoms of gas, making their bellies look like a balloon is caused by the same condition; fluid containing high levels of nitrogen fills their stomachs.


Dane

cheers dane mate usefull tips Very Happy

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Dane
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PostSubject: Re: No Gravel.......   Sat Feb 07, 2009 12:23 am

just like to add gravel from the likes of pets at home is dyed and over a period of time it goes white



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PostSubject: Re: No Gravel.......   Sat Feb 07, 2009 5:43 pm

Dane wrote:
snails dont bother with breeding however you dont want mass snails because of the ammonia problem they will cause

if you have eggs in a fry trap add a few mts they will help by cleaning eggs of any fungus etc

heres shanes article of the bateria

When I first started to breed plecos I used a thin layer of fine gravel in the raring tanks and I had no problems raising them, but after I read about other breeders that use no substrate I tried that technique. If nothing else, it made it easier to vacuum and keep the tank clean from waste and foods. In no time at all I started experiencing problems keeping my fry alive; one by one, with a day or so between they started to die. In the beginning I thought the problem was the water rather than any disease because there was too few dying, but the deaths never stopped how much water I changed. I can't tell for sure what was going wrong but I have my ideas about what caused the problem; after some months a bacteria film built up on the bottom glass which feels like a thin slimy coat to the touch. My thoughts about this are that the bacteria consume lots of oxygen and their end product is nitrogen which makes first, lower millimeters of water low in oxygen and high in levels of nitrogen instead. Small fry that live on the bottom practically swim, breathe and live in just this layer; their mouth and gills are, at most, 1 mm up from the bottom glass. Their oxygen level starts to decrease in their blood and the immune system weakens until they fall prey to bacteria or die from high levels of nitrogen in their blood; they are essentially “drowning”. The first symptom is faster breathing followed by the loss of fin parts as bacteria attack them. I also think that the symptoms of gas, making their bellies look like a balloon is caused by the same condition; fluid containing high levels of nitrogen fills their stomachs.


Dane


i also had this same problem mate with fry when i first started spawning BN

now i have a thin layer of sand in my grow out tank Very Happy


and has for cleaning i use a turkey baster to pick up the left over food and poo
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PostSubject: turkey baster   Mon Jul 05, 2010 10:40 pm

my trusty little tool the turkey baster comes in handy, though my partner is still wondering where it is on a sunday dinner lol,...

also I could do with a longer turkey baster since I am a short armed hobbit...lol
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PostSubject: Re: No Gravel.......   Thu Aug 26, 2010 7:13 am

Damn. I wish I discover this forum ages ago Sad
It would have helped me in determining why the fishes start dying after a while in a bare tank.
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PostSubject: a old post now but very useful   Thu Aug 26, 2010 3:56 pm

bare bottoms tanks I tried many years ago...

I prefer fine gravel to medium gravel on my grow out tanks... fine gravel is good but can be a pain when trying to capture the fish for selling later as they manage to squeeze under the net and fine gravel.

though must admit the fine gravel is better for a tank of pleco's mixed with cories... so you have to weigh up the pro's and cons Smile
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PostSubject: Re: No Gravel.......   Fri Aug 27, 2010 10:10 pm

I prefer a bare bottom but what I have done is targetted my filter outlets so I get a nice dead spot where all the poop collects so makes it much easier to clean up
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PostSubject: Re: No Gravel.......   Tue Mar 08, 2011 1:40 pm

Gravel for me ...don't like the slimy film ya get from bear bottoms, even have some sand at least in my fry savers..
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PostSubject: Re: No Gravel.......   Fri Apr 29, 2011 3:21 pm

This is very interesting, i have the same problem with a one or two fry dying every day which bums me out a bit because my water quality is really good and stable but i have no substrate for cleaning. Should i put a thin layer of gravel in?
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PostSubject: Re: No Gravel.......   Sat Apr 30, 2011 12:32 am

its your call, this thread has just detailed the pros and cons of having gravel.

i use a bit of gravel but thats just me.

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PostSubject: No Gravel.......   Sun Dec 25, 2011 9:12 pm



This info is priceless so glad i joined this forum Good Job

Have been wondering about gravel and sand and the slim you get from bare bottem tanks so glad i read this post it has really enlightened me.....i to wish i'd found this info months and months ago.

Cheers

Lee.
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PostSubject: Re: No Gravel.......   Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:00 am

Just came across this topic, and I am surprised how many of you had problems with BBTs.

Over a year now I use BBT for my L144s without any problem. Not to mention "bottom slime".

I use 5, 20, 42 and 92 litre tanks for them and no slime, no mortality whatsoever.
As I do not have a turkey blaster, I "employ" a group of Corydoras pygmy (for small ones) and C. trilineatus (for above 4 cm).
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